Geek Thought: Could the hobby survive Star Trek?

[HoneyRose]

Originally Posted by Daen1304

.... money becomes useless and we all work for the betterment of ourselves or humanity;

This optimistic part reminds me of the ideas of Thorstein Veblen's The Theory of the Leisure Class (1899). He suggested that reduced amount of labor needed to meet our needs would allow people more time to elevate themselve's spiritually They could study philosophy, the fine arts, read and reflect.

Obviously his book pre-dated tv and video games. People haved filled their leisure time with quite a bit of mindless activities.

Another interesting part of his book was predicting that as our income rises, the amount of money we spend on leisure must increase. Since the appeal of whittling and Sunday drives has pretty much disappeared, I believe he's right.

[LazurusLong]

Originally Posted by PODarkness

Friday. One of Heinlein's best. Lazarus Long might even agree, as long as Time Enough For Love is in there somewhere.

The difference between Heinlein and ST is the existence of $$$. "Credits" and credit cards are not part of the Star Trek future, making Doxy a volunteer position. So the question becomes...
Ladies, if you had no need for money, would you volunteer?

Yes, Friday was and is a fantastic story.

But your claim about Star Trek not discussing money or credits must be examined more closely.

Many writers of future history have developed the concept of taking core elements to create food. Fredrick Pohl, in his Heechee series, postulated a food factory that is capable of turning raw carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen (CHON) from comets into sustenance for an over populated planet.

Once a population can feed everyone, whoever controls the machine controls everything. Including the marketplace.

Although Star Trek didn't openly talk about money, if you think back to the episode the Trouble with Tribbles, the basis for the storyline is that control of "Sheman's Planet" will be awarded to either the Klingons or the Federation and the decision would be based on who could manage it more efficiently. And since the planet was described as little more than a farming enterprise, the wheat they were transporting was critical to the success. Why would they be fighting over a planet that could produce wheat if they could simply replicate all the wheat they need? The series had many glaring holes such as how the food dispensers on the ship could make anything yet there was still demand for specific items such as the wheat or even more importantly, the dilithium crystals needed for the ship that only occur naturally. Again, why would they struggle over planets that had supplies of them if they could simply replicate the crystals?

But more importantly, think back to the scene in the bar where Scotty gets into a fight. The tribbles are being sold for credits, drinks require credits, pretty much everything requires credits.

Here's another Star Trek issue as it relates to the hobby. Go back to "The Cage" and recall the Orion green women. Wasn't that a pleasure planet? Obviously it looks like a very upscale brothel and the drinks and playtime would never be free.

The trading and transportation of goods was part of the overall story line. Cargo ships? They had plenty. Why would you transport cargo if you should only really need the base elements for the replication machines?

[Bob Soldios]

Well. in the Star Trek universe replicators were invented between TOS and TNG. In ToS they still had to manage supplies. And IIRC they said there were some things which it was "difficult" to replicate.

To touch on another aspect of this involving Heinlein, who is one of my favorite authors as well, in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress they have to calculate how long the moon colony can survive and have to calculate it based on if a manner for transmuting raw materials into water and food is or isn't discovered in the near immediate future.

Although at the risk of sounding sacrilegious on the topic, I always considered Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Stranger in a Strage Land, and Time Enough for Love to be far superior to Friday, with a special mention of Job : A Comedy of Justice for whenever I have to talk religion with someone. He lost me some when he started the whole "let's tie everything into one multiverse" angle.

[Iaintliein]

I've always wondered. . . who has to clean up all of the multi colored alien cum left in the Hallow Deck? Come one, you KNOW there are some hellatious programs lonely trekkers have written for that thing.

[PODarkness]

I'm not the only one! Whew!

[LazurusLong]

I forgot about Harry Mudd and the episode "Mudd's Women".

Apparently, even in the future, there's a shortage of women and Mudd uses an illegal drug, the Venus drug, that works like many of today's providers that abuse photoshop in order to present a much more lovely package.

[Daen1304]

I have been outdone in my own thread on a geeky subject... you guys can give the TVTropes crowd a damn good run.

Originally Posted by LazurusLong

But your claim about Star Trek not discussing money or credits must be examined more closely.

Many writers of future history have developed the concept of taking core elements to create food. Fredrick Pohl, in his Heechee series, postulated a food factory that is capable of turning raw carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen (CHON) from comets into sustenance for an over populated planet.

Once a population can feed everyone, whoever controls the machine controls everything. Including the marketplace.

Although Star Trek didn't openly talk about money, if you think back to the episode the Trouble with Tribbles, the basis for the storyline is that control of "Sheman's Planet" will be awarded to either the Klingons or the Federation and the decision would be based on who could manage it more efficiently. And since the planet was described as little more than a farming enterprise, the wheat they were transporting was critical to the success. Why would they be fighting over a planet that could produce wheat if they could simply replicate all the wheat they need? The series had many glaring holes such as how the food dispensers on the ship could make anything yet there was still demand for specific items such as the wheat or even more importantly, the dilithium crystals needed for the ship that only occur naturally. Again, why would they struggle over planets that had supplies of them if they could simply replicate the crystals?

But more importantly, think back to the scene in the bar where Scotty gets into a fight. The tribbles are being sold for credits, drinks require credits, pretty much everything requires credits.

Here's another Star Trek issue as it relates to the hobby. Go back to "The Cage" and recall the Orion green women. Wasn't that a pleasure planet? Obviously it looks like a very upscale brothel and the drinks and playtime would never be free.

The trading and transportation of goods was part of the overall story line. Cargo ships? They had plenty. Why would you transport cargo if you should only really need the base elements for the replication machines?

As was already pointed out replicators came between TOS and TNG. But even then, the replicators worked much like Pohl's. TNG and DS9 had to have a store of raw materials to replicate. And even then it was the equivalent of microwaving a meal instead of actually baking or going out to eat. Quick and it got the job done, but the quality just wasn't the same. Hence why Benjamin Sisko's father owned a Cajun Restaurant and they had to do more than move food from a replicator to the table. Voyager was the first show to have replicators that worked virtually energy only and in fact according to some sources the Intrepid class ship was the first design to have these brand new replicators.

And the Federation was pretty much the only group in the fictional universe that had a "Who needs money?" mentality. And because of this the whole concept of money never truly ceased. We see this a lot in DS9 as they have a lot of interaction with the Ferengi. Sisko blackmails Quark by pointing out that he doesn't have to pay rent because the Federation runs the station, but there is no reason they have to run it that way. Nog even proves that the Federation has a hidden economy when he essentially traded a few dozen items and services around to get a piece of equipment for O'Brien.

But even though focusing on Star Trek was not the point of this whole thread, that whole bit went back to the point. If the concept of money becomes obsolete, the economy won't. If food, shelter and medical care become so freely accessible that you could literally choose anything you wanted to do with your life to be a productive citizen, would the hobby live on? Do you think that people would still go in to this line of business as their chosen trade? What would they hope to get out of it? That sort of thing.

Originally Posted by HoneyRose

This optimistic part reminds me of the ideas of Thorstein Veblen's The Theory of the Leisure Class (1899). He suggested that reduced amount of labor needed to meet our needs would allow people more time to elevate themselve's spiritually They could study philosophy, the fine arts, read and reflect.

Obviously his book pre-dated tv and video games. People haved filled their leisure time with quite a bit of mindless activities.

Another interesting part of his book was predicting that as our income rises, the amount of money we spend on leisure must increase. Since the appeal of whittling and Sunday drives has pretty much disappeared, I believe he's right.

There have always been idealistic dreamers who thought that "If only this happened then everyone would just start thinking more and become more enlightened." Thomas Jefferson thought the USA would turn into a society of educated farmers. John Adams thought that was hogwash and predicted we would become a powerful industrialized country. Adams won that little contest in the end. Veblen just never studied his cultural history. Shakespeare, who is now considered classical literature, was thought to be vulgar and low class back in the day. Sure, the Queen had been known to go to a play or two but the theater started in a brothel. If you wanted to see a high class play you would go watch someone do one of the Ancient Greek plays. There have always been mindless activities for the masses to take part in on their down time. It's the mass access to information that is the new thing and scientists have actually proven that even though are tastes seem to be getting worse and more mindless, the minds themselves are getting sharper. Take a good look at this very thread. We are having a philosophical debate involving Star Trek, Veblen, a few Sci-fi authors, and I just threw in Shakespeare and two founding fathers. And this is happening on a "Silly Whore Board". In a sense, we are proving Veblen right, while turning it oh so wrong.

Originally Posted by LazurusLong

I forgot about Harry Mudd and the episode "Mudd's Women".

Apparently, even in the future, there's a shortage of women and Mudd uses an illegal drug, the Venus drug, that works like many of today's providers that abuse photoshop in order to present a much more lovely package.

"Even in the future, there's a shortage of women" we have that beat now. Depending on where you get your source the ration of men to women is somewhere between 50.2%M/49.8%F to 47%M/53%F. And that is with China having a population that is 90% male as an unfortunate cultural side effect of enforcing a population control. We don't really have a shortage of women, China does, but the world doesn't.

[Captain Caveman]

OMG! A geek thread! Nerdgasm!

I would have to agree with PODarkness that the holodeck is the most obvious alternative to meet the sexual needs of the average Starfleet officer. If anyone remembers Ensign Barkley from ST:TNG he had an addiction to the holodeck (where he would enact a fantasies of being the heroic captain of the Enterprise). One could extrapolate from that that the occasional Starfleet officer might need to get off once a week on the holodeck with a holographic Orion slave girl (or whatever other girl met his fancy). Of course, the holographic brothel was frequently alluded to with Quark's establishment on DS9.

[LazurusLong]

Originally Posted by Captain Caveman

OMG! A geek thread! Nerdgasm!

I would have to agree with PODarkness that the holodeck is the most obvious alternative to meet the sexual needs of the average Starfleet officer. If anyone remembers Ensign Barkley from ST:TNG he had an addiction to the holodeck (where he would enact a fantasies of being the heroic captain of the Enterprise). One could extrapolate from that that the occasional Starfleet officer might need to get off once a week on the holodeck with a holographic Orion slave girl (or whatever other girl met his fancy). Of course, the holographic brothel was frequently alluded to with Quark's establishment on DS9.

I wonder if they would restrict crew members from using other crew members images in those holodecks?

How pissed would Riker be if he were to find out that Deanna Troi is fucked round the clock in the holodeck?

Or in the Voyager series, might that not cause problems is the crew used and abused their captain sexually in there?

[guest061212-1]

http://youtu.be/aJEuCgR18Ug


Kinda reminds me of chat...

[Daen1304]

Originally Posted by J.G. Wentworth

http://youtu.be/aJEuCgR18Ug


Kinda reminds me of chat...

Kind of reminds me of half the threads in Co-ed.

[Captain Caveman]

Originally Posted by LazurusLong

I wonder if they would restrict crew members from using other crew members images in those holodecks?

How pissed would Riker be if he were to find out that Deanna Troi is fucked round the clock in the holodeck?

Or in the Voyager series, might that not cause problems is the crew used and abused their captain sexually in there?

I think they can put people they know into their holodeck sessions. Ensign Barkley used the entire crew of the Enterprise for his fantasy. There was an episode where LaForge needed to create an avatar of an engineer so that he can bounce ideas off of her. It turned out said engineer was hot. He started to fall in love with the avatar... then the real engineer showed up. She was cold and distant, the complete opposite of the avatar. Awkwardness ensued when she discovered her own avatar.

I think the modern equivalent would be having a fap session to Miss X showcase... do you tell her you rubbed one out while looking at her pics? Or is it better that she doesn't know?

[pyramider]

I have learned more about Star Trek here than by watching the show.

[Boltfan]

You guy are over analyzing this subject way too much.

Two words - Bare back!

I can just whip out my tricorder, scan her, she can she me and we can have unprotected sex all we like. Then use a transporter to beam out my swimmers.

Done.

[Daen1304]

Originally Posted by Boltfan

You guy are over analyzing this subject way too much.

Two words - Bare back!

I can just whip out my tricorder, scan her, she can she me and we can have unprotected sex all we like. Then use a transporter to beam out my swimmers.

Done.

Bolt, there a term for people like you:

MAD FREAKING GENIUS!!

Not only is that a awesome horrbily abusive use of insanely dangerous technology, you gave me an idea for ~Ze~'s thread about face fucking her while Jill Jill's herself. Create a holographic ~Ze~ then she can watch herself get fucked and get fucked while watching herself. Do the same to the guy. Make multiple copies and have ~Ze~ roulette! Who is doing the real one? Turn off the holodeck to find out!