The Deep State Pope

[Jackie S]

It would not surprise me if this current Pope revised the Church’s stance on abortion.

[bambino]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

It would not surprise me if this current Pope revised the Church’s stance on abortion.

I think he’s ok with it. He’s a scumbag. And I was baptized as a Catholic.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by bambino

PFunk is just a troll with nothing of substance to say. I guess he’s filling in for Yssup Rider.

I mean, what ever happened to "you are wrong and I'll prove it". Isn't that what intelligent debate calls for? I guess I'm just old fashioned in that way.

[pfunkdenver]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

I'm curious, do you ever just Google a topic before you go out on a limb with an opinion that questions the posters point of view?

I do, any time I take a position on historical facts, I do a check to make sure that what I'm about to say has some validity.

Now I guess one could debate the meaning of "Was with the Nazi's", but there is plenty of evidence that the Catholic church during the war was not it's finest hour.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ust-180974795/

Pope Pius XII led the Catholic Church during the tumult of World War II, but his silence on the fate of the millions of Jews killed during the Holocaust has clouded his legacy with controversy.
To critics, the pontiff’s refusal to publicly condemn the Nazis represents a shameful moral failing with devastating consequences. In his polarizing 1999 biography of Pius, British journalist John Cornwell argued that the religious leader placed the papacy’s supremacy above the plight of Europe’s Jews, winning a modicum of power—and protection from the rising threat of communism—by becoming “Hitler’s pope” and pawn. Supporters, however, say that Pius’ silence was calculated to prevent German retaliation and ensure the continued success of the Catholic Church’s behind-the-scenes efforts to aid victims of Nazi persecution.
I'm sure there are some who would take the position that the Pope "saved" the church but saving the church on a moral failure is not saving anything IMHO but then I'm not a Catholic but Agnostic.

Matthew 16:26

For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?

So...you're claiming that since the pope didn't denounce the nazis, and fight them, he was guilty of collaboration.

FDR didn't fight the nazis until Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Was he guilty of collaboration, too?

What utter nonsense!

[pfunkdenver]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

I mean, what ever happened to "you are wrong and I'll prove it".

I's say that you, bambino, and jackie need to look in a mirror, and ask yourselves this question.

Truly.

[bambino]

Originally Posted by pfunkdenver

I's say that you, bambino, and jackie need to look in a mirror, and ask yourselves this question.

Truly.

You mean you? Zero evidence of election fraud. Zero? That’s laughable

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by pfunkdenver

So...you're claiming that since the pope didn't denounce the nazis, and fight them, he was guilty of collaboration.

FDR didn't fight the nazis until Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Was he guilty of collaboration, too?

What utter nonsense!

Funny, I can't find where I used the word "collaboration" any where. Could you point it out to me?


I provided an article by the Smithsonian. This is what "they said"!

the pontiff’s refusal to publicly condemn the Nazis represents a shameful moral failing with devastating consequences.

You have a problem with what "they said", take it up with them.


Oh, and FYI, FDR publicly condemned the Nazi's long before we went to war. That is what the Pope should have done but didn't.


You got one thing right, all you have in response is utter non-sense. I figured you couldn't just admit you were wrong and move on. You had to come up with some silly, ridiculous analogy that made absolutely no sense to anybody but you. You're arguments are pitiful.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by pfunkdenver

I's say that you, bambino, and jackie need to look in a mirror, and ask yourselves this question.

Truly.

Good fucking grief. The evidence is right there in front of you. You made no effort to prove bambino wrong, I made an effort to prove you wrong as I always do. I'll remind you that you even complemented me on my research once.


This was all about "if you believe somebody said something wrong and inaccurate, prove it". You didn't, I did. Simply enough concept to understand. Truly.

[pfunkdenver]

Originally Posted by rexdutchman

WW2 the church was with the Nazis , helped some escape, till they lost The LSM will NOT report on any real facts

Complete and total lie!

[bambino]

Originally Posted by pfunkdenver

Complete and total lie!

Why don’t you actually provide receipts for your one line claims? Because you can’t. Or too lazy to try. Probably both.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by pfunkdenver

Complete and total lie!

So you know the truth but historians are still debating the subject. Maybe they should put you on the investigative board with your vast knowledge of what actually happened. You wanted people who do accuse the Pope of collaboration which BTW I never did, here you go.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/histo...tican-records/

Pope Pius XII was silent during the Holocaust. Now Vatican records may reveal whether he collaborated with the Nazis.

It was a Saturday — Shabbat — in October 1943. The Nazis had been occupying Rome for a month. An hour before sunrise, they surrounded the Jewish ghetto and began la razzia. The roundup.

Within a few hours, more than a thousand Italian Jews, mostly women and children, had been herded together a few blocks from the walls of Vatican City. As one Nazi ambassador later put it, the Jews were loaded into trucks and taken away “under [the pope’s] very windows.”


Whether that pope witnessed the deportation or not, he said nothing. Only 16 of those Jews would survive.
Is saying nothing equal to collaboration?


Sixteen months later, a frail 13-year-old girl in tattered prison stripes collapsed on a train platform. After the Nazis had fled, she wandered from the concentration camp in Poland where she had been imprisoned, trying to get to Krakow, trying to find her family.
But she was starving and could go no farther. She probably would have died there on the cold platform if not for a young man in a long robe who looked to her like a priest. He brought her a warm broth to drink, the first of many things the future pope, Karol Wojtyla, now known to the world as John Paul II, would do to save her life.

Pope Pius XII, who led the Catholic Church from 1939 to 1958, has long been criticized for his public silence during the Holocaust. Critics have argued he also did nothing behind the scenes to stop Nazi atrocities;

Would that be a form of collaboration?

supporters have claimed he secretly ordered Catholics all over Europe, such as young seminarian Wojtyla, to save thousands of Jews.
Now, the Vatican is opening its archives to researchers, who hope to settle the question for good.
Hey! Check with the Punk before you make a conclusion!!!!


“The Church is not afraid of history,” Pope Francis said last year when he announced the archives would open.

Depending on what they reveal, it could also stop Pius XII’s canonization as a saint. In 2009, he was declared “venerable” by Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI, but the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and several Jewish groups called for the “wartime materials” about the pope to be released. Benedict XVI initiated the process to prepare more than a million documents for release, which Francis has now completed.

Cardinal Angelo Becciu, who leads the office that investigates possible sainthoods, told The Washington Post last year that historical facts could dictate “whether it is appropriate or not to do a canonization.” Three of the four popes after Pius XII who have died have been canonized.
During World War II, the Vatican maintained a strict neutrality stance. Brown University historian David Kertzer told The Post that while Pius XII “bemoaned the loss of life in a general way,” he “never did speak out directly about the Holocaust.”

In 1963, a German playwright wrote a play depicting the pontiff as a moral coward. Then, in the 1999 book “Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII,” journalist John Cornwell also accused him of being anti-Semitic and of actively collaborating with the Nazis.
I guess this journalist never checked the evidence that the Punk has!


Other historians, such as Martin Gilbert, have pushed back against this characterization, claiming Pius XII helped Jews behind the scenes.

Indeed, Gilbert claims that in Rome nearly 5,000 Jews were hidden in Catholic monasteries and convents, including several hundred in the Vatican itself. In northern Italy, thousands more were hidden at the pope’s summer residence; all of this happened at the pope’s direction, according to Gilbert.
Elsewhere, in France and Poland, while some clergy turned against the Jews in their communities, others sheltered and hid them. Vatican officials have said this may have also been at the direction of Pius XII and kept “off the books.”

That may include Wojtyla, who, one biographer claims, helped Jews get false papers as a member of the underground seminary during World War II.


Then there’s Edith Zierer, the young Jewish girl he found at the train station. After feeding and talking with her, Wojtyla carried her to a neighboring town where the trains were working, according to a family account. He boarded a cattle car with her, covered her in his cloak, and rode with her to Krakow. There, she was taken in by other Jews and was separated from her strange protector. She never forgot his name.

Decades later and living in Israel, she learned he was about to become the next pope. They met again at the Vatican in 1998.

Whether the archives will contain evidence linking Pius XII to the good works of other Catholics — exonerating or condemning him — remains to be seen. Kertzer is now in Rome with more than 150 other scholars to begin going through the files. Vatican officials told the Associated Press it will take years, not months or days, for new conclusions to be drawn.
So we don't have yet, direct evidence of collaboration but his moral failing to condemn Nazi's is apparent.


https://www.dw.com/en/the-ratlines-what-did-the-vatican-know-about-nazi-escape-routes/a-52555068


The ratlines: What did the Vatican know about Nazi escape routes?

After World War II, thousands of Nazis fled to South America along so-called ratlines — often with the help of Catholic clergy. The Vatican is now opening its archives from the time. Will it be a moment of truth?


In 1948, just three years after the end of World War II, a leading Nazi war criminal managed to escape from a prison in Linz, Austria.
Franz Stangl, a former SS-Hauptsturmführer and commander of the Sobibor and Treblinka extermination camps, was responsible for the deaths of almost 1 million Jews. Via Graz, Merano and Florence, he made his way to Rome and — most importantly for him — to the Vatican.


In Rome, Bishop Alois Hudal, a fellow Austrian, greeted him with the words: "You must be Franz Stangl — I've been expecting you." He then handed Stangl forged documents that allowed the Nazi war criminal to travel to Syria, where his family eventually joined him. In 1951, the Stangl family emigrated to Brazil. The man who perfected mass murder in the concentration camps spent years assembling cars at a Volkswagen plant near Sao Paulo.


Franz Stangl is one of thousands of Nazis and collaborators who, with the help of the Catholic Church, escaped Europve via routes called "ratlines" — some of which ran from Innsbruck over the Alps to Merano or Bolzano in South Tyrol, then to Rome and from there to the Italian port city of Genoa.


Stangl chose a detour via Syria, but the majority of Nazis boarded ships headed directly to South America — mainly to Argentina, the country Holocaust survivor and writer Simon Wiesenthal named the Nazis' "Cape of Last Hope." Argentina was that last country to declare war on Nazi Germany.


Spontaneous cooperation?
"The ratlines were not a thoroughly structured system, but consisted of many individual components," said Daniel Stahl, a historian at the Department of Modern and Contemporary History at Jena's Friedrich Schiller University. "It was more of a spontaneous cooperation of different institutions that gradually established itself after World War II."
Some 90% of Nazi perpetrators who escaped Europe are thought to have fled across the Alps to Italy — that was the first loophole.


Their first stop was in the South Tyrol region of northern Italy: the monastery of the Teutonic Order in Merano, the Capuchin monastery near Bressanone or the Franciscan monastery near Bolzano. The war criminals would often hide out in monasteries — these ratlines are also known as the "monastery route" — for years, collecting money to continue their escape overseas. Sometimes, the Nazis were accommodated right next to their former victims, Jews headed to Israel.


Rome was the next stop. The Nazis who had a letter from the Catholic Church confirming their identity were handed a passport by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), which issued about 120,000 papers until 1951 — a mere formality.


"The story goes that even before the end of the war, there was a clearly thought-out and elaborate plan for Nazi escapees," Stahl said. "That is wrong, even the likes of Franz Stangl first wandered around Rome without knowing what to do next." Information was passed on word of mouth.


A name that regularly crops up is Alois Hudal. The Austrian bishop had clearly positioned himself as a Nazi sympathizer during Nazi rule, and later he said many of those persecuted were "completely blameless" and that he "snatched them from their tormentors with false identity papers."
"It would have been much more difficult for Stangl and the others to flee" if the Catholic Church had not protected many Nazis, Stahl said.


What did Pope Pius XII know about the ratlines?
Despite all the evidence historians have compiled about the ratlines, one questions still remains unanswered 70 years on: How much did Pope Pius XII know about them?
That's exactly what church historian Hubert Wolf intends to find out. Together with dozens of colleagues from around the world, he plans to spend the next four months combing through Vatican documents. On March 2, the Holy See will publish the archives from Pius' tenure for the first time.


"It's an incredible opportunity to answer several pending questions from the era, and a huge challenge," the professor of church history at the University of Münster told DW. "We're talking about 300,000 - 400,000 documents of 1,000 pages each."
Wolf knows from past experience scrutinizing the archives of the Inquisition, that researchers will spend weeks studying nothing of importance before stumbling across a "treasure trove."


Hoping for answers
A serious verdict on the contents of the archive will take years, Wolf warns. However, he is still optimistic about gaining meaningful insight into the ratlines. "For example, did the pope issue direct instructions or was it a more general order to help people without papers," Wolf says. "Or is there concrete evidence that the pope, with encouragement from the CIA, thought: 'it would be a good idea to send nationalistic people to Latin America because Communists were actively trying to overthrow the continent'."


Pius XII's fear of communism is well-documented, and was a point of reference for clergy helping on the ratlines. The justification was that whatever the National Socialists did during the war, at least they fought communism and had to be protected from political persecution. Communism was seen as the greatest threat to the Catholic Church.
"It may transpire that the pope knew nothing of any concrete help and that some people ruthlessly exploited that. Or Pius knew all about it, and turned a blind eye," Wolf told DW. So the all-important question that the opening of the archives must answer is: "Was the pope manipulated or did he know about people like Josef Mengele? That would be a whole new dimension."

[bambino]

^^ Hey PFunk, that’s a receipt in case you’re wondering. ^^

[Strokey_McDingDong]

I worship pope.

[pfunkdenver]

Originally Posted by bambino

^^ Hey PFunk, that’s a receipt in case you’re wondering. ^^

‘If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.’

[bambino]

Originally Posted by pfunkdenver

‘If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.’

That’s your motto.