The glory days of the HDH are over.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

I thought that's what the FDIC/FSLIC was for. Did the fuckin' insurance companies skate again?

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

Probably similar to flood insurance, which also is not really insurance companies (except, as I understand it, some companies are beginning to dabble in very small amounts...which they probably suspended after Katrina).

I think reading this forum is making me dumber:fishi ng1:

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

I thought that's what the FDIC/FSLIC was for. Did the fuckin' insurance companies skate again?

Originally Posted by discreetgent

It is, but ...... FDIC/SLIC was never going to be able to handle a worst case scenario in which a number of really big banks (Citicorp, BofA, Chase,Wells Fargo) all went belly up at the same time. And this has nothing to do with insurance companies. The banks themselves contribute a very small percentage of deposits to FDIC; insurance companies are not involved as all - at least as I understand it.

First, the FDIC/FSLIC are there to shut down insolvent banks, and they did quite a bit of that during this recession like they do during every recession. The banks covered by TARP were not insolvent. Insolvent is a condition where your liabilities exceed your assets. Banks had to qualify to get TARP money. It wasn't given to every one. These banks, even under close to worse case scenarios were probably not insolvent. They had plenty of good assets and positive cash flows. (e.g., one of the big TARP recipients in the first round, where they were required to take the money whether they wanted it or not, was Northern Trust -- a bank that primarily manages money for pension funds and wealthy individuals. They have a very low level of loans and virtually none of the toxic shit.) But like any bank if their depositors (primarily institutions who weren't insured -- like company payroll accounts) all tried to pull their money out and move it to Treasury bills*, they couldn't meet the demand. That is a liquidity problem, where the government needs to step up and stop the panic and tell people to cool it. That's what TARP was for.

Second, as DG noted, the existing funds like FDIC couldn't begin to handle the strain.

Third, the Government did a horrible job explaining all this and selling it. Of course, a totally political environment in Washington didn't help.
__________
* Some many people headed for T-bills that at one point they had a negative return -- it would cost you $1.02 to buy a bill worth $1.

[Laurentius]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

Of course, it did. That statement when applied to the real estate market is utterly insane, and 60% of the $10 trillion that was lost was in real estate.

The President needn't worry. The prices of real estate were driven higher by demand artificially created through loan programs intended to drive the churn that makes brokers and bankers rich. Much of the valuation lost ought never to existed. Loans with "no income verification," "0% down" etc. created demand that ought not have existed, and qualified people for loans they should never have received. This drove demand which drove price.

When people stopped being able to pay these loans, often defaulting on even the first payment, trouble ensued.

If you really believe that, maybe you can tell President Obama not to worry about falling home prices because the homes and land still exist.

I'm not worried because I didn't sell my house and therefore there was no loss.

This is a straw man. I said fewer men were booking HDHs not no men. My exact words were the glory days of the HDH are over and that the HDH may be an endangered species. You are claiming that I said the HDH is extinct.

Fair enough. But this is why I posited the issue of wealth distribution. Something like 34% of the wealth in this country is controlled by 1% of the population. THIS group of people is what constitutes most of the demand for HDHs. Some of these HDHs charge $4k/pop. They were never in the domain of a techie earning 60k before taxes.

Do you think the people who control 34% of the wealth in this country have become so impoverished they can no longer afford their toys?

But they tell you??? How do you know that these mysterious cabal of men don't hang out in the locker room or participate or read the message boards??? Are they given sodium pentothal before seeing a HDH??

I know because I know some HDHs extremely well; in some cases so well that those of either sex highly enamored of boundaries would have their panties in a bunch.

The rich men I know are not fools. They are going to want to know that they aren't going to be arrested number one and get value for their money number two.

Well, you hang out in their exclusive locker rooms, whereas I don't. You're more likely to find me shoveling chicken manure. But, yes, the key term you used is VALUE. Value is NOT price -- it is an equation, a ratio, of what is received versus what is paid. Whether or not an HDH constitutes value depends upon what is specifically sought by the client. If all he wants is a BJ, then no HDH is a good value. But if he is seeking other things, she can deliver value far in excess of her fee.

For example, one HDH has given me fertile paths of inquiry that will likely result in very innovative lines of thought in upcoming books of mine.

Maybe some don't read message boards, but I would bet that they do go off others experiences and recommendations. They would be simpletons not to.

I agree. My first 3 years of hobbying I didn't even know that you could book providers over the Internet. The two ladies I saw exclusively were by referral from other guys I know and trust.

And actually, even today, there is a local lady to whom I send clients who would never know the meaning of the acronyms on these boards; and the lady accepts those clients because I vouch for them; just as the clients accept her because I vouch for her.

And I am puzzled as to how these mysterious men find said women and get approved to see them.

Now you are no longer puzzled because I've explained it! (*grin*)

For the record, I am comparing the HDH market from 2000 to 2007 to the one today. There is nothing in your post to suggest that my original premise, that the glory days of the HDH are over, was wrong.

I agree that the days of just any woman being able to collect high rates are over. A lot of that was fueled by erroneously-made home equity loans for guys who couldn't think their way out of a wet paper sack in terms of basic economics and intelligent financial behavior.

But in terms of real HDHs -- that is, women whose rates are high but whose customers see them as delivering value in excess of their rates ... I'm sorry, but because of wealth distribution, I don't think their market has overall been adversely affected. A billionaire who has lost $200M can still afford an HDH with ease.

[discreetgent]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

First, the FDIC/FSLIC are there to shut down insolvent banks, and they did quite a bit of that during this recession like they do during every recession. The banks covered by TARP were not insolvent. Insolvent is a condition where your liabilities exceed your assets. Banks had to qualify to get TARP money. It wasn't given to every one. These banks, even under close to worse case scenarios were probably not insolvent.

Mostly agree. Citicorp was almost certainly insolvent but they tweaked things just enough so they could get TARP money; Citicorp going belly up was just not a risk the government was willing to take after they saw what happened when they let Lehman (which was not a bank) fail.

[Chevalier]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

Consider a compact disc. A guy buys a CD for $16, and it has five good songs on it as compared to the usual one or two, and he thinks he has gotten a good value. He then runs into someone who used Napster or Limewire and downloaded the same songs for free and then another one who bought the 5 good songs on Itunes for a third of the price. Now is he going to feel that he got a good value?

From the consumer's perspective, yes, iTunes may be better than buying a CD if you're just looking for good music. If you're looking for a particular album . . . well, it may cost $16 for Sergeant Pepper (not available on iTunes last time I looked) and only $11 for Sticky Fingers, but if I want the former, the extra money is worth it. Ditto if I want the long version of In-A-Gadda-Di-Vida.

I'm not a "Tuxedo," don't play in the same ballpark as y'all. I'll never be in a position to spend $10,000 on a tryst. But within the boundaries dictated by my budget and schedule, the choice depends more on the individual than the cost. Beauty, BCD skills, personality, etc. -- none of those are really objective; they're all in the eyes of the beholder. I certainly have found some fun companions at $200-$250. On the other hand, if I want to see, say, Carrie Hillcrest next week, it's not relevant that I could see some other lady at a fraction of the cost. The ladies are not freely interchangeable, any more than Sergeant Pepper and Sticky Fingers are interchangeable. Some people prefer one, some people prefer the other. Sometimes I'm in the mood to listen to the Beatles, sometimes the Stones, sometimes Led Zeppelin.

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

You have to wonder what the record industry was thinking. The CD business like the HDH business IMO will never return to its former glory.

Those HDHs then are like the record companies who think that they can wait out the downturn IMO are making a big mistake.

So my questioning to the HDH about value is the same as what I would do with the record industries and CDs. How much does it really cost to make a CD? What are your margins? What is the lowest amount you can take and still turn a profit?

From the business' perspective, it seems to depend on whether they want to maximize potential profit. That's certainly applicable to the music industry, and even then there are holdouts like the Beatles library not on iTunes. It's not necessarily applicable in P4P, at least not for every lady.

[Laurentius]

Originally Posted by Chevalier

On the other hand, if I want to see, say, Carrie Hillcrest next week, it's not relevant that I could see some other lady at a fraction of the cost. The ladies are not freely interchangeable, any more than Sergeant Pepper and Sticky Fingers are interchangeable. Some people prefer one, some people prefer the other. Sometimes I'm in the mood to listen to the Beatles, sometimes the Stones, sometimes Led Zeppelin.

Indeed, it really IS the individual lady. Great point!

[Texas Contrarian]

Originally Posted by John Bull

...Now he spends hours and hours on the SB sites trying to get a date. Apparently it is very hard for an older guy to negotiate that venue. He's lucky if he gets a date twice a month and the quality...let's just say that SW's might be an improvement in some cases.

I suppose I would be considered an "older guy" by most of you (I'm 60). But that has not been my experience, and recently the SD-SB world is just about the only way I've played. True, it does take quite a bit of time -- but only every now and then, because a few contacts keep me pleasantly occupied for awhile. If one of my "regulars" is not available when I have the time and inclination to play, I can just call another. The problem is that it's very much a numbers game, and probably no more that 2% of women participating on the sites are appealing enough to interest me.

The HDH model would be appealing to me if:

1) There were more choices here in the Dallas area.

2) It were possible for me to plan further in advance. The best HDH ladies in my area, generally speaking, are unavailable without advance notice (often several days or longer). It just isn't possible, or even desirable, for me to plan more than about one day in advance in most cases.

Having said that, I can't conceivably imagine the demise, or anything close to it, of the HDH business model -- any more than I can imagine the demise of the ultra-high end jewelry market. Obviously demand may wax and wane with cycles in the economy, but there's always a market for quality.

Originally Posted by Chevalier

...Beauty, BCD skills, personality, etc. -- none of those are really objective; they're all in the eyes of the beholder. I certainly have found some fun companions at $200-$250. On the other hand, if I want to see, say, Carrie Hillcrest next week, it's not relevant that I could see some other lady at a fraction of the cost. The ladies are not freely interchangeable, any more than Sergeant Pepper and Sticky Fingers are interchangeable. Some people prefer one, some people prefer the other. Sometimes I'm in the mood to listen to the Beatles, sometimes the Stones, sometimes Led Zeppelin.

My sentiments exactly.

[guest012511]

Excellent point...

Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight

Having said that, I can't conceivably imagine the demise, or anything close to it, of the HDH business model -- any more than I can imagine the demise of the ultra-high end jewelry market. Obviously demand may wax and wane with cycles in the economy, but there's always a market for quality.

Cheers,
H

[ForumPoster]

Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight

The HDH model would be appealing to me if:

1) There were more choices here in the Dallas area.

2) It were possible for me to plan further in advance. The best HDH ladies in my area, generally speaking, are unavailable without advance notice (often several days or longer). It just isn't possible, or even desirable, for me to plan more than about one day in advance in most cases.

1) Well, availability of HDHs in specific markets is demand driven. I had heard "you should come to Dallas" for a very long time .. but it took someone to actually BOOK an engagement for me to now consider the trip.

2) Advance planning is the key. Most HDHs have very specific business model and lifestyle. Ladies usually have pre-bookings days, sometimes weeks in advance, juggle other business ventures and/or school and various social commitments.

3) True HDH will strive to provide high level experience for each of her gentlemen callers. That means prep time longer than the sponge bath :-)

Lina

[ForumPoster]

Originally Posted by Laurentius

Indeed, it really IS the individual lady. Great point!

And this is why you would find greater level of cooperation between top providers vs "CL chicks".

At certain level it is all about busting a nut and competition and backstabbing is fierce. Once you get to play in HDH pond .. you will find that these ladies are a lot more secure with themselves and their business. They know that each and single one of us is unique and offers experience rather than "release"

Lina

[Laurentius]

Originally Posted by Sensual Lina

And this is why you would find greater level of cooperation between top providers vs "CL chicks".

At certain level it is all about busting a nut and competition and backstabbing is fierce. Once you get to play in HDH pond .. you will find that these ladies are a lot more secure with themselves and their business. They know that each and single one of us is unique and offers experience rather than "release"

Lina

I couldn't agree more. I have never had any issues with HDH ladies being unwilling to be cooperative with each other, etc. If anything, they seem to work together seamlessly and efficiently. While I don't do much verification any more (my list has become VERY short, lol), I've never had an HDH who didn't respond to a verification request within mere hours.

And you are right about the uniqueness of the experience, at least from a client perspective. This leads to a phenomenon where the lady is not seen as a commodity that can simply be replaced by any other woman. A couple of rounds of this, and the client no longer wants "to see a provider and bust a nut" but is instead interested in "seeing Ms X to enjoy her company." It's a totally different mindset.

An unfortunate side effect is that a couple of HDHs have, I believe, spoiled me for most other women by raising the bar very high.

[Texas Contrarian]

Originally Posted by Sensual Lina

2) Advance planning is the key. Most HDHs have very specific business model and lifestyle. Ladies usually have pre-bookings days, sometimes weeks in advance, juggle other business ventures and/or school and various social commitments.

I understand that, and certainly understand that HDH ladies may generally need -- for various reasons -- to book dates well in advance. And that sometimes works for me.

It's just that I like to engage in P4P on a pretty frequent basis, so relying on that model alone would usually leave me high and dry!

[John Bull]

Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight

I suppose I would be considered an "older guy" by most of you (I'm 60). You Sir, are a mere babe in arms. And I hope the arms are silky soft.

Having said that, I can't conceivably imagine the demise, or anything close to it, of the HDH business model -- any more than I can imagine the demise of the ultra-high end jewelry market. Obviously demand may wax and wane with cycles in the economy, but there's always a market for quality.

Word

[Camille]

..but what about idiots like this?
This is a major clusterfuck.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/ny.../15brooks.html

"A former military contractor who made bullet-resistant vests and other body armor used in Iraq and Afghanistan was convicted on Tuesday of fraudulently enriching himself from company funds through the kind of extravagant spending exemplified by his purchase of a $100,000 belt buckle.
The contractor, David H. Brooks, the former chief executive and chairman of DHB Industries, was convicted of 17 counts, including insider trading and securities fraud, stemming from what prosecutors described as corporate looting and stock-trading schemes that made him more than $190 million.
The verdict, reached after 13 days of deliberation over five weeks by a federal jury in Central Islip, N.Y., capped a theatrical eight-month trial that stood out from other recent corporate malfeasance cases both because of the unusual details regarding Mr. Brooks’s once lavish lifestyle and because of his public unraveling since his arrest.
Mr. Brooks, 55, sat impassively as the verdict was read. His lawyer, Kenneth W. Ravenell of Baltimore, said he would appeal but declined further comment because Mr. Brooks still faces a hearing on Oct. 5, in front of the same jury, about possibly forfeiting the $185 million he was accused of making as an insider through an illegal sale of stock.
A second defendant, Sandra Hatfield, 56, the company’s former chief operating officer who was accused of assisting the fraud, was found guilty on similar charges. Roland G. Riopelle, a lawyer for Ms. Hatfield, said she was very disappointed with the verdict, which she found “a bitter pill to swallow.” Whatever mistakes she made, he said, “were made in good faith as a result of the chaotic circumstances she found herself in.”
Mr. Brooks and Ms. Hatfield each face up to 25 years in prison on the most serious counts when Judge Joanna Seybert sentences them. Mr. Brooks faces at least two more trials, one for tax evasion and another for contempt of court. He is also under investigation on suspicion of jury tampering, based on notes that officials have discovered.
Since the beginning of the trial in January, Mr. Brooks has proved as colorful a character at the defense table as he was in the boardroom. He had his $26 million bail revoked when prosecutors revealed he had been hiding millions in assets from the government overseas. In the final days of the trial, he was caught in possession of several pens filled with anti-anxiety drugs.
Mr. Brooks created DHB Industries in 1992 and expanded what had been a bankrupt manufacturer into one of the largest dealers of bullet-resistant vests and other body armor used by the American military and law enforcement. The company, now known as Point Blank Solutions, has since moved to Florida and declared bankruptcy. Though questions have been raised about the efficacy of the body armor — regarding the design and materials used — those issues did not come up in trial.
Instead, the prosecutors focused on the schemes they said Mr. Brooks used to enrich himself at the expense of the company and its shareholders. Mr. Brooks was accused of charging more than $6 million in personal expenses to the company, a list that included fine china, private jet flights, luxury cars, prostitutes, plastic surgery, racehorses and the six-figure jewel-encrusted belt buckle designed to look like the American flag.
The more significant fraud, according to prosecutors, was that Mr. Brooks ordered employees to lie repeatedly about the company’s financial performance, including overstating the inventory of bullet-resistant vests, to make the company seem more profitable than it was.
Mr. Brooks made $185 million selling his shares in the company when they were at an all-time high of over $20. Ms. Hatfield made $5 million selling her shares. Within a year, the company reported the accounting errors, and the price of shares had dropped to less than $2.
Joseph Berger contributed reporting."

I hear his lear jet is for sale. Anyone got $4 million to drop?

C

[Camille]

Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight

Having said that, I can't conceivably imagine the demise, or anything close to it, of the HDH business model -- any more than I can imagine the demise of the ultra-high end jewelry market. Obviously demand may wax and wane with cycles in the economy, but there's always a market for quality.

So true. The term HDH is so ambiguous. It would be more accurate to say "Exclusive companion"....because that's exactly what the HDH was originally..very very exclusive. Such things typically appeal to the cognescenti..who know the difference between high priced and high end.

C xx