When you and a client *really* disagree

[Wwanderer]

The world is complex. People are among its most complex elements. Relationships among people are necessarily more complex still. Relationships between people involving such fundamentals as sex, money/property, affection, love, family, health, politics, values, success/failure etc are among the most complex of these relationships. Combine a couple of those elements (sex and money, money and family, sex and family, money and health, politics and love...) and, you guessed it, matters become yet more complex.

It reminds me of something Richard Feynman used to say about quantum mechanics, "If it doesn't worry you, you don't understand it."

But all of this complexity is not a bad thing; it is what makes life challenging and thus engaging and uplifting...a feature, not a bug.

Someone who thinks they have all the answers or who thinks that some simple set of rules or a belief system (a religion for example) can provide all the answers is not only deluding themselves but is also wearing blinders that greatly limit their experience of the richness life.

In my opinion and experience.

-Ww

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by Natalie

I don't know why the situation strikes some as so surprising—haven't you gotten in a relationship with someone before (personal, professional, romantic, client/escort), become deeply fond of them, and then realized after that you had fundamental disagreements? This gentleman doesn't wear a swastika T-shirt, and doesn't feel he or his views are racist; prejudices often reveal themselves more slowly and subtly, particularly in the early stages of a romantic relationship (albeit an escort/client one) where two people are trying at some level to impress one another. I have a hard time believing that you have never gotten close to a person and had every instinct about them be spot-on from the very beginning.

I disagree that finding oneself in a complicated position makes one unprofessional or of weak character. These seem to be rather harsh and gratuitous insults, and I'm having trouble understanding how my post provoked such sentiments in you. While I welcome your opinion and some of the points you made, I don't think speaking that way was necessary or helped you articulate yourself in any way. You really just put another person down in an internet flame war, which I suppose is gratifying for some people, but not something I've ever quite understood as a productive conversation or even very much fun (I believe you called me childish in one post as well, no?). In any event, the profession is complicated. Personal relationships are complicated; adding money to the mix might simplify them superficially, but can also make things more difficult. We enjoy what we do, but quite frankly wouldn't require payment for it if it was only about fun, hot sex and good times. Reaching a point where you can truly afford to only see the people that make you happy takes time—and people change, and dynamics between people change. Obviously. I think it's quite reasonable to ask for others' experiences, and had several people email and PM me thanking me for starting the thread, because it was a question that they found helpful as well. I disagree that anyone without all the answers is of weak character—I guess I would personally reserve "weak character" as a description for someone who is malicious or extremely selfish to the point where they hurt people.

For those who have approached this post as if it were a dumb, useless/obvious question, and the asker an idiot, I'd like to point out the fact that the wide variety of responses argues against that. I won't go through everything, but responses ranged from "Just take his money and don't let it get to you because he's not worth worrying about," to "Oh my god, I'd never waste my time with someone who acted like that." If it was really that obvious and I was such an idiot for asking, it seems like you all would have been in agreement with a response. So chill, and if it's that dumb and pointless, no reason to read—after all, it's not like I'm even paying you.

Hello Natalie!

I understand exactly where you come from, also myself had mistress type relationships and i agree with what you stated. Your question was not a dumb one, and i never thought you were talkind about yourself in that post (I am a naive person in that regard, when someone tells me something i do not automatically think they are trying to mislead someone or lie :-)....)

I gave my answers out of my own experience. I have had several mistress type relationships, in fact , mostly all of them develop into that kind of area when i recruit them from my escort homepage (in switzerland i sometimes used to work also in a studio which is a completely different approach to that topic - so you can believe me - i *know* my way around in the various areas and ranges being an escort means)

I just think its rather unwise to critizice clients behaviour w ithout critizising the escorts approach to it. A racist is a dangerous person. She is aware of that character now. I have to admit i had all sorts of clients, but racists and politically right wing people usually never knock on my door, it might be that my homepage (bohemian and polyamorous) already statest that i am too left wing to have fun with. I remember myself having real fights about politics with clients as well. I am myself in that job as well as in any other job. I wonder why it is so surprising for you (or other people for that matter) that - stating that escorting is a job and resembles a helping profession - the same ethical implications would apply. Chalking up the fact that some people are weak (aka they do not state their true opinion or do not want to talk about tricky issues - i consider that weak - sorry...) to the intricacies that intimate relationships generally imply, is an EASY way out of adressing personal issues. Did i make mistakes? I sure as hell did. But i never chalked up my personal weaknesses to intricacies of intimate relationships. And asking a racist (he does not need to wear a svastika, the subtle racists are the more dangerous ones, because with someone wearing a swastika you can engage in political discussions at least since they state their opinions very clearly) or a politically right wing person to simply SHUT UP so i don`t have to confront myself with my selling my soul also, is not the best approach.

As to that people answered to your post " to take his money and not care" - i do think that is also revealing of a bad character. Bad character is defined here in my sense of thinking as someone that caters to the enemy and supports him with being submissive without adressing core questions.

Do i have grown fond of people whose character revealed later on. Oh yes. In fact - i tend to believe that no person - no matter how deep a relationship develops and how intimate it can get - can ever , ever , ever , ever , ever TRULY know another person and most of their aspects. Ask wives. I do think though, that honesty is a core approach in intimate relationships. So - playing games - aka avoiding tricky topics will end in a one way street only. The relationship does not evolve beyond that point ever and if you don`t want to live in a relationship that is dead inside because after a while you will find that there are so many topics you can`t share discussions with - you better start talking honestly :-) and get involved also.

Would i cater to a person whose beliefs do not match mine by simply avoiding tricky topics? No , i wouldn`t. does not matter if he wears swastika. I wonder how superficial some conversations must be if it has not been revealed before that profound disagreements have been there "before" entering the said state of disagreement. As all of you can see "the art of small talk" is yet something i have to profoundly learn :-).

I think IF i have a client whose core beliefs do not match mine - i adress the topic and try not to avoid it. In fact just recently one of my regulars pointed out to me how open minded he thinks he is and i told him honestly and with a joking nod, that he is still a hypocrite because pretending to be monogamous while having a secret lover does not exactly show openmindedness. we had great fun too. He made jokes about me taking such long time to finish my educations (yes it took me long to get my Masters in Psychology....spank me....but i have it!!!! and that is what matters!!)
I think the fruitful relationships in life (money involved or not) are the ones where people are HONEST. and trying to chalk up important discussions to "shut up about it" and pretend everything else is fine is not very fruitful. As i stated it can be dangerous for political agendas. And these agendas start in the small room, the personal space - as some smart feminist once stated "THE PRIVATE IS POLITICAL" - once someone wears a swastika already...welll....you know its too late.

Oh and i recently dated a mormon. a TBM. In my private life. So i know a bunch or two about having different "core beliefs". I do not surround myself with people who are only like me (Hell , i am SPECIAL and UNIQUE!!! there is only one me....just kidding.....)
but i engage in discussions, and i am very radical to end relationships after even more radical discussions and what not. Sometimes its not possible to cater to all people involved without making someone hurt. ANd your friend seems to be hurt already. Cheers!

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

Your question was valid. These experiences are complicated, but rewarding. Be observan, take the time to reflect on your experiences and never make the same mistake twice.

You're sharp. Thing will work themselves out.

In fact i do believe that when someone asks questions they are already smart enough to not make EVERY mistake themselves! And - i know about mistress type relationships. I have been thru all sorts of types of escorting. from 15 minutes studio engagements to 7 years of sugardaddy types. So - i am NOT really biased, i simply don`t believe people in this business are creative enough to constantly come up with NEW problems that have not been there before. This problem is a constant one in that business, its there all the time. does not matter how intricate life is and relationships are. The problem is NOT new, its NOT SPECIAL!, so by trying to believe that someones mistress-type relationships are sooooo different to someone else`s someone just avoid hearing tricky answers :-) or growing a spine :-) (and that is a good thing, isn`t it). My answer is one i gathered from my own experience. Weaknesses and avoiding tricky topics NEVER pay off in the long run. Sorry!
I have gotten to know too many suffering escorts who all thought their problem was such a unique one! It isn`t.

In fact in europe you get introduced into that business by a wiser older lady so you don`t have to make all mistakes yourself and LOOSE valid and UNRENEWABLE time!
In fact, its not about being stiupid or making mistakes its about LOOSING TIME!
I do not have to jump of a bridge myself to find out i will be dead afterwards. So - by asking people a question i am already beyond the state of making every mistake myself. That is a GOOD thing!

says the woman who is an escort and recently dated a mormon! what an amour fou! so , yes i am capable of adressing different belief systems! But the other part has to engage in discussions too. Mormon and escort does not work when only one budges, believe me. And hell!!!!! I LOVED that guy with every fibre of my being!

and anyway, i know for a fact that many providers who pretend to be "oh so polite in public to anyone and their clients" are nice in the face of a client and then talk bad shit about him behind their back. The things i heard some providers say about their clients on how much they hate touching them - after they entered a SD relationship kind for career purposes or whatnot - because they think it saves them university educations or getting a real degree :-)..... This is something i do not EVER do, because my character forbids me to backstab people, while smiling in their face and pretending all is ok. If i have issues with a person i tell it in the face! And if i sell myself as a slave then at least i do not complain about the hand that feeds me! Because complaining about clients is just TOO EASY while CATERING to them! We do not live in a third world country where screwing someone saves your daily food so you have to overlook everything to not die. We are hedonists and responsible.
People who talk about their issues with clients and dare not to talk to him in the face are - sorry - irritating me ! And i pity those clients. They can get better for their $$ and move on to a provider who really likes them.
In europe we have a saying that goes :- IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS LIKE THAT YOU CERTAINLY DON`T NEED ENEMIES ANYMORE!"

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Natalie

For those who have approached this post as if it were a dumb, useless/obvious question, and the asker an idiot, I'd like to point out the fact that the wide variety of responses argues against that. I won't go through everything, but responses ranged from "Just take his money and don't let it get to you because he's not worth worrying about," to "Oh my god, I'd never waste my time with someone who acted like that." If it was really that obvious and I was such an idiot for asking, it seems like you all would have been in agreement with a response. .

I can only speak for me but tell your limbless friend , that is who you were asking for correct?, that I do not think any answer(s) dumb. I thought that there would be many different reasons discussed but only one answer would be correct for her and you and you and and you and and you!.....if a person did not know the answer and had to ask, well then I thought there might be something wrong with that person that they had to take a poll to see what was right for them. How can any person know you better than yourself? The person that ask the question is the only one with the answer for herself. You do not have to be a HDH to know answers like these but you can't be one and not.

On the flip side if ninasastri thinks there is only one universal answer, well that is dumb too. IMHO

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

I understand that. However, if over time someone feels perfectly comfortable causing you distress, you will eventually learn to hate them. I hope that I'm wrong.

You can hate them for putting you in that position, you can hate yourself for getting in that position or you can embrace the experience of the position.

The first option gives them way to much power and the second option gives you way to little....the third is how enlightened people operate.

[NinaBrooke]

come on WTF---all these my words and you downsize me to one universal answer?? which means "get a spine"? all those university education all for nothing :-(. And i tried to get across the board like so smart.

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by WTF

You can hate them for putting you in that position, you can hate yourself for getting in that position or you can embrace the experience of the position.

The first option gives them way to much power and the second option gives you way to little....the third is how enlightened people operate.

right!

[Guest042611]

Hi WTF, it wasn't intended as a poll. I think I've explained myself and my intentions adequately, so I won't do so again.

Thank you again to everyone who offered a sincere respone.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by ninasastri

And i tried to get across the board like so smart.

And you are using WTF as a standard of this?

[WTF]

Originally Posted by ninasastri

come on WTF---all these my words and you downsize me to one universal answer?? which means "get a spine"? all those university education all for nothing :-(. And i tried to get across the board like so smart.

I said if

Originally Posted by WTF

On the flip side if ninasastri thinks there is only one universal answer, well that is dumb too. IMHO

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Natalie

Hi WTF, it wasn't intended as a poll. I think I've explained myself and my intentions adequately, so I won't do so again.

Thank you again to everyone who offered a sincere respone.

Well Hi Natalie, yes you explained it and then another poster entered the fray....I was posting for her information too not only yours. I was hoping to convey that your friend had no limbs, is an escort and might not be able to walk away from the racial uncomfort as easily as other might.
And yes lets give thanks to all posters who ask sincere questions and sincere responses, and the wisdom to know the difference as they say in AA.

[London Rayne]

Well darn...I tried!

I guess I don't see things as complex as others do. If someone annoys me, I either put up with it or walk away. When you think about it, those are the only two answers being you CAN'T change another person.

I would be MORE willing to stay the duration if it were a loving mate whom I were faithful to, rather than one that met me as an escort...that's just me though.

Whatever the lady does, I am sure it will work out one way or the other. Lesser of two evils is usually my motto in situations like these.

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

And you are using WTF as a standard of this?

yes he seems to have my level of intellect, ....(so, now...its up to him if he sees that as an insult or a compliment )

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by London Rayne

Well darn...I tried!

I guess I don't see things as complex as others do. If someone annoys me, I either put up with it or walk away. When you think about it, those are the only two answers being you CAN'T change another person.

I would be MORE willing to stay the duration if it were a loving mate whom I were faithful to, rather than one that met me as an escort...that's just me though.

Whatever the lady does, I am sure it will work out one way or the other. Lesser of two evils is usually my motto in situations like these.

Things usually ARE not that complex. Its just an excuse for lack of backbone. Or she REALLY needs the money for some GUCCI survival gear. Its not that only HDHs experience the relationships as complex situations. We all do. Some charge less because it simplifies situations. Which is a relief too sometimes.

[London Rayne]

WTF is Kewl.