TSA regulations needed or gone too far?

[dirty dog]

Originally Posted by i812-)

The whole concept behind the body scan according to the TSa spokesperson is to catch those smuggling hazardous and dangerous fluids. How many of those four planes were hijacked with a 4.0 fl ounce container not in a 1 quart zip lock bag.

Not saying no security but they need to be reasonable and not so intrusive. I wish I could find the study but since 9/11 tourism to america has declined soley do to a security regulations

You had the shoe bomber and then the dude last year on christmas day. The only thing that saved us on those occasions is pure fiucking luck. Your right non where hijacked with a 4. oz container, they were hijacked with a box knife. Oh yeah forgot they search for those so a body scan is not needed, hmmmm, you know how stuff gets into prison, or how an inmate hides a shank, they put the item in a condom and shove it up their ass. A body scan is the only way to see if a person has put a box knife into a condsom and shove it up their "prison pouch", then in flight they go to the can and retrieve it.

[dirty dog]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

So we have to violate everyone's rights in order to not violate anyone's rights. Yes, the four planes were American, but none of the perpetrators were nuns or babies.

"Yes, the four planes were American, but none of the perpetrators were nuns or babies"

Your right they werent but here is a senerio for you. first you have to remember the types of people were dealing with, they blow themsevles up. Do you think they would have a problem stealing a baby and shoving Symtex or C4 up its ass, or planting a bomb in the baby carrier, and that old lady, do you know her? maybe her family is being held hostage and there going to be killed if she does not carry this bomb on board up her ass, or maybe she is a zealot willing to die. One of the problem is that many of you have never had to live and survive in an enviorment where people have all day to think of ways to off you. We Americans operate under a since of rules that others do not. I know this, it does not take much explosive to blow a hole into the skin of an aircraft and cause the aircraft to come apart.

[dirty dog]

Originally Posted by john_galt

Profiling can't be written in concrete. By it's very nature it has to be flexible. Yes, young men with a dark complexion between the ages of 18 to 45 are suspect but you can't just follow the rule book. You have to be able to make a judgment call. Maybe that blonde, very nervous guy clutching his carry on is suspect. How about the nasty old woman in the hajib complaining about how bad the US is. It might be something unapparent. Like a man wearing a thousand dollar suit with old beat up shoes. This is unusual and maybe worthy of a second look.

John what your describing is not profiling, its being observant, profiling is questioning a group just because they are of a certain criteria. What your describing is investigating suspicious activity.

[dirty dog]

You know what I find very funny about this, the same people who were so against profiling hispanics on the Arizona boarder are so willing to do it at the airport because it speeds up the process. Those of you screaming about things becoming a police state, then want to profile. You know you cant pick and choose which rights you want to enforce and in which situation you enforce them. You cant say hey dont do this screening it violates my rights and then turn around and say but hey check all the muslims, just because their muslims.

The bottom line is this in my opinion and I am not trying to hurt feelings or pick fights so it I have offend someone with my comments I appologize. But in my opinion, every response in question is wrong, what the TSA is doing it wrong, what people are advocating is wrong and how this country is responding to this is wrong. Our reaction and overreaction to whats going on is exactly what the Terrorists want they want to terrorize and disrupt our everyday lives, they want cause people to live in fear. I played the part of devils advocate here to see what response I would get, but changing the priciples of america and violating individuals right either through offensive touching or profiling is a victory for them, what the TSA is doing is a victory for them, being fearful of the guy sitting next to you on the plane because he is muslim or arab is a victory for them. The truth is we are all going to die, the only thing we can control is how we go out, if that means I am going to die on an airplane then I am going to die being a proud, head held high, arrogant American, I dont want to die being from a country that is afraid to do anything, fearful of everyone and everything, so we need to stop the screenings, and go back to the way things were in mindset and attitude.

[CuteOldGuy]

I think the difference between you and I, Dirty, is that you're paranoid about the terrorists, and I'm paranoid about the government. It's not a good situation either way. Our side has to right 100% of the time, the terrorists only have to get it right once. I wish I had a workable solution, but the odds of one terrorist being able to subvert the present system is pretty good. Right now I think the terrorists are sitting in their caves laughing their asses off about all the commotion they've created. When they need new entertainment, they will try something we're not expecting, and more and more of our liberties will be lost. The terrorists have us looking at each other with suspicion, and if they leave us alone in that, we will destroy each other without their help. Kind of like that "Maple Street" episode of Twilight Zone.

What the TSA is doing is not the answer, but I don't know what the answer is. When I figure it out, I will call Janet Napolitano and tell her. What would help me is if I believed the government was actually trying to protect me, but that kind of trust went out the window years ago.

So I guess I will just sit here with my tinfoil hat on, just to be safe, and drive where I need to go.

[Gryphon]

The problem with screening everyone is that there are just too many people flying for it to be a reasonable use of resources. Last year there was one attempt to blow up/hijack a U.S. airplane--the underwear bomber. That's one person out of about 650,000,000 who flew last year. The TSA is attempting to find an awfully small needle in an awfully big haystack by checking each individual piece of hay. This is expensive in dollars, time, and labor and oh, by the way, the hay doesn't like it much. The Israeli advice on this matter has been, "Don't waste your time looking for weapons; look for terrorists." From a purely pragmatic standpoint it makes more sense to me to try to separate out the needle rather than checking the hay. Exactly how to do that? Not my area of expertise.

[dirty dog]

I am not paranoid about the terrorists at all, in fact maybe you should reread my last comment. I dont live in fear about dying which is their only weapon. Your wanting to curtail the rights of some is no different than the TSA response and no different which was my entire point. Personally like I said before we could go back to how the airport operated in 2000 as far as I care, because the fact is, we all gotta die, but at least we die on our terms because we dont cater to the fear they try to attack us with. But I do agree with much of what else you stated, no hard feelings on your part I hope, by the way, I dont trust the government to do anything, the reality for me is really I am sick of the whining from people, first they whine about not enough protection and now they whine about too much.

[lacrew_2000]

Originally Posted by dirty dog

you know how stuff gets into prison, or how an inmate hides a shank, they put the item in a condom and shove it up their ass. A body scan is the only way to see if a person has put a box knife into a condsom and shove it up their "prison pouch", then in flight they go to the can and retrieve it.

The TSA and manufacturers of the scanners have made it clear that they only penetrate 1/10" into the skin - so as to give only a low dose of radiation. The scanners would not find anything in a 'prison pouch'. I suppose a metal detector would find a knife up there, but the pat downs and scanners are looking for non-metal explosives....which could easily be stuck up the brown tunnel.

[john_galt]

I think I said earlier I was given a lecture on profiling by a member of HLS three years ago. In those days they were trying to use the Israeli model. They had multiple layers of surveillance at the airport. If you were not a terrorist, nor acting suspicious then you would probably never know that you were being watched. If the primary check caught you up, then an agent may make physical contact with you and ask some seemingly benign questions. If you failed this a uniformed agent would ask you to step aside for an interview. So like I said, if you didn't trip any wires you got on your plane and had a typical flight to Vegas.

The movie Wrong is Right is available on Amazon.com. Terrorist (who are going to die anyway) have explosives planted inside their bodies surgically. That would beat any detection system other than profiling. Hell, they could even show up at the airport in a wheel chair and we would get them on board first.

[kc-max]

I feel I can comment here with some authority. I fly out of KC 20 to 30 times a year. Have been doing so for the last 26 years. Have seen a lot of changes.

First trip since the new security measures went into effect was this week. Southwest, and so my driver informed me, Delta are the only ones here with the new scanners. Went out on Southwest and when screened at security was directed through the older metal detector instead of the newer scanner.
There was no pat down at all. Nor did I see anyone else subjected to a pat down. Same at the other end in Columbus, OH.

I think this is more media hype to stir everyone up than an actual reality and it sure worked. The scanners and older detectors are both still being used and the pat downs are very random at best. The scary part is what I am able to carry on the plane with no questions asked. Not just my observations, as I have about a dozen co-workers that travel as often as I do and their experiences have been the same as mine.

[Muffrider]

Originally Posted by kc-max

Went out on Southwest and when screened at security was directed through the older metal detector instead of the newer scanner.
There was no pat down at all. Nor did I see anyone else subjected to a pat down. Same at the other end in Columbus, OH.

I recently flew Southwest to southern Fla and back with the same experience. But, while I wasn't personally patted down, I did see one man getting patted down in Fla. on the leg back.

The so-called "pat down" was more like a two-handed breast exam of literally EVERY square inch of the man's body, and I mean EVERYWHERE. By the time he walked away, he had received a clean bill of health for breast and testicular cancer.

[CuteOldGuy]

I get it now. This is part of the Obama health care plan. Saves time and money. Cool!

[old-tyme-racer]

FYI watch out when flying if you are over 50 years of age. This may happen to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qdb6wC0Iz4