Shooter on UT Campus

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by mj2749

I think that's an invalid point Booth. The fact is this person did NOT go through the trouble to get a CHL. As most criminals don't. There's something in their mindset that goes against them doing things the legal way. That's why they are criminals. Just because this man had never been arrested doesn't mean he had never committed a crime.
In 2007 there were over 61,260 conviction for crimes in Texas. Out of that number, 160 convictions were of CHL holders. That's .026%. This is according to the Department of Public Safety. I think we can all agree that CHL holders are NOT the problem in the great State of Texas.

Colton Tooley did not need a CHL since carrying an AK-47 semi-automatic weapon openly is not against the law here. He did nothing to break the law until he fired the weapon. And I would hardly classify the guy as a criminal prior to yesterday -- honor student from Crockett HS, graduated something like 7th in his class, and from interviews on television of friends and teachers was not a criminal in any way, shape, or form. We may never know what happened in Tooley's mind that made him do what he did.

[mj2749]

Texas Penal Code, Disorderly Conduct: (8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

I'd say carrying an AK-47 style assault rifle on the UT campus is a "manner calculated to alarm".

[blenderhead]

So you don't want 21 year olds to carry on campus, but the fact is they're allowed to carry almost everywhere else no matter how immature you may think they are. How often do they go postal and shoot people if they got an F earlier in the day? How often do students who legally carry go postal on campuses where carrying is allowed?

I don't see a lot of compelling evidence for banning carry on campus. When I went to UT I didn't feel particularly unsafe while I was on campus, and I don't feel particularly unsafe most places I go in Austin. I still value being able to protect myself and my family, and I choose to carry wherever I go. It's a pain, but I've had some close calls so I'm not taking any chances.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by mj2749

Texas Penal Code, Disorderly Conduct: (8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;

I'd say carrying an AK-47 style assault rifle on the UT campus is a "manner calculated to alarm".

I would tend to agree with you but walking down the street in Austin with an AK-47 over your shoulder is not against the law. Read the reports on Tuesday's activities. Tooley was breaking no law by simply carrying the weapon.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by blenderhead

So you don't want 21 year olds to carry on campus, but the fact is they're allowed to carry almost everywhere else no matter how immature you may think they are. How often do they go postal and shoot people if they got an F earlier in the day? How often do students who legally carry go postal on campuses where carrying is allowed?

I don't see a lot of compelling evidence for banning carry on campus. When I went to UT I didn't feel particularly unsafe while I was on campus, and I don't feel particularly unsafe most places I go in Austin. I still value being able to protect myself and my family, and I choose to carry wherever I go. It's a pain, but I've had some close calls so I'm not taking any chances.

I do not fully trust ANYONE with a gun. Police officers make mistakes and they are much more highly trained than anyone with a CHL. I think as you age you become much more responsible. I trust a 30-year old with a CHL to do the right thing more than a 21-year old with a CHL.

As I've stated previously -- the President of UT-Austin is on record as not wanting concealed handguns on campus. The faculty is on record as not wanting concealed handguns on campus. The majority of student organizations are on record as not wanting concealed handguns on campus. A very vocal minority want concealed handguns on campus. We supposedly live in a democracy where the majority opinion should rule.

To counter your other arguments -- how often are there random break-ins of homes in the Austin area, yet you feel compelled to have a gun just in case? You probably carry a gun in your car yet when is the last time you heard of a car-jacking in the Austin area. I'd be interested in knowing what you consider a close call.

I am not saying you are wrong to have or carry a gun. That is your choice and while I might disagree with your need to do so, I will never disagree with your right to do so.

[mj2749]

SpeedRacer, you ask about random break ins. If you check this very website, you'll see that a provider was followed home after leaving a SC and subsequently was the victim of a home invasion in which people were injured. Just a week ago I read a post on the alert page where someone responded to an BP ad, went to meet the provider only to then be met by her "associate" who was described as an African-American male with gold teeth that apparently made it clear that no service would be provided but that his money would be retained. Now since you're on this site, I'm going to assume that you have responded to ads by providers. Let's leave the screening issue aside that the poster may have been more careful about. What if this male associate didn't want a witness to this robbery? What if the home invaders didn't want to leave witnesses behind? (Apparently in that case the Police responded quickly enough to apprehend a few of the suspects). I think you can see that crimes happen to people on this very forum. Just because I agree to meet a provider, does that mean I forfeit my right to be safe? Does that mean a pimp or other person has the right to do harm to me? These are just examples in relation to this forum/website. If you're really curious how much crime occurs in Austin, I'd like to suggest this. Sign up for a ride along with APD during any night shift. Civilians can ride along as long as they have no warrants and are not convicted felons. I think you will find it to be an eye opening experience of just how much crime takes place in Austin on a daily basis.
I will say that I appreciate you not disagreeing with our right to carry as I respect your right not to carry. We can agree to disagree on the other points.

[blenderhead]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

I do not fully trust ANYONE with a gun. Police officers make mistakes and they are much more highly trained than anyone with a CHL. I think as you age you become much more responsible. I trust a 30-year old with a CHL to do the right thing more than a 21-year old with a CHL.

Maybe you feel that way, maybe I do too, but leaving feelings aside are there statistics to back that up as it pertains to CHL holders? The law feels that 21-year olds are mature enough to protect themselves. And that nobody, regardless of age, is mature enough to protect themselves on a college campus.

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

As I've stated previously -- the President of UT-Austin is on record as not wanting concealed handguns on campus. The faculty is on record as not wanting concealed handguns on campus. The majority of student organizations are on record as not wanting concealed handguns on campus. A very vocal minority want concealed handguns on campus. We supposedly live in a democracy where the majority opinion should rule.

Sure, I'm not disagreeing with that. I just don't necessarily agree with them, but I'm not saying my opinion is the only valid one.

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

To counter your other arguments -- how often are there random break-ins of homes in the Austin area, yet you feel compelled to have a gun just in case? You probably carry a gun in your car yet when is the last time you heard of a car-jacking in the Austin area. I'd be interested in knowing what you consider a close call.

Somebody climbing up onto my upstairs balcony late at night, somebody banging on my door with a baseball bat after midnight, some punks randomly robbing and shooting a kid in my old safe suburban neighborhood right where I used to go for walks in the evening, road rage, etc. I haven't been a victim yet, thankfully.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by mj2749

SpeedRacer, you ask about random break ins. If you check this very website, you'll see that a provider was followed home after leaving a SC and subsequently was the victim of a home invasion in which people were injured. Just a week ago I read a post on the alert page where someone responded to an BP ad, went to meet the provider only to then be met by her "associate" who was described as an African-American male with gold teeth that apparently made it clear that no service would be provided but that his money would be retained. Now since you're on this site, I'm going to assume that you have responded to ads by providers. Let's leave the screening issue aside that the poster may have been more careful about. What if this male associate didn't want a witness to this robbery? What if the home invaders didn't want to leave witnesses behind? (Apparently in that case the Police responded quickly enough to apprehend a few of the suspects). I think you can see that crimes happen to people on this very forum. Just because I agree to meet a provider, does that mean I forfeit my right to be safe? Does that mean a pimp or other person has the right to do harm to me? These are just examples in relation to this forum/website. If you're really curious how much crime occurs in Austin, I'd like to suggest this. Sign up for a ride along with APD during any night shift. Civilians can ride along as long as they have no warrants and are not convicted felons. I think you will find it to be an eye opening experience of just how much crime takes place in Austin on a daily basis.
I will say that I appreciate you not disagreeing with our right to carry as I respect your right not to carry. We can agree to disagree on the other points.

With all due respect, I do not think you know the definition of "random". It means that there is no connection between the victim of the crime and the person committing the crime. The people attacked in the SC incident knew their attackers. Just recently, two men were sentenced for murdering 2 UT students. Again not random. The victims knew the killers. Recently two men were killed outside a SC. Again not random since the victims knew the murderer. I think if you look over the violent crimes committed in Austin, the majority of them are not "random". So if you could point me to a "random" break-in in Austin I would appreciate it.

As an aside, people who work in the adult sex industry put themselves in danger just by being in that industry. I would probably advise any provider to carry a weapon for protection.

Also, regarding your comment about going on a ride along -- the crimes committed in Austin are primarily in very specific areas of the city. Every January the Austin American Statesman tells where every murder in the previous year in the city limits has occurred and the supposed reasons behind them. The overwhelming majority of them are in a very few areas, mainly east of I-35. The overwhelming majority of them are disputes between people who know each other. I'll bet your ride along didn't hit northwest or southwest Austin.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Quote:

Maybe you feel that way, maybe I do too, but leaving feelings aside are there statistics to back that up as it pertains to CHL holders? The law feels that 21-year olds are mature enough to protect themselves. And that nobody, regardless of age, is mature enough to protect themselves on a college campus.

Unfortunately the website cited by mj2749 (which I have cited in other discussions on the subject) does not break down the statistics by age. I stated a personal opinion when I said I trusted a 30-year old with a gun over a 21-year old with a gun. And while I'm sure that the majority of 21-year olds are mature enough to carry concealed weapons on a college campus, I think the risks from allowing them to do so outweighs the risks from banning concealed weapons.

Quote:

Somebody climbing up onto my upstairs balcony late at night, somebody banging on my door with a baseball bat after midnight, some punks randomly robbing and shooting a kid in my old safe suburban neighborhood right where I used to go for walks in the evening, road rage, etc. I haven't been a victim yet, thankfully.

I may be misinterpreting your statements but it seems like only the first 2 affected you personally, and since you don't state the circumstances behind the incidents, it is difficult to tell if they were innocent incidents or not.

[Carl]

Well, if 2% of the tens of thousands of people on UT campus at any given time (>50K, students, faculty and staff) were legally carrying weapons and a shooter or shooters started mayhem, how many of the legally carrying people would draw their weapons upon hearing gunfire? 5-10-20? If they start looking around and they see 5-10-20+ other people with drawn weapons, everyone in a highly alert and adrenaline-charged state how do any of them tell the good guys from the bad guys? How many on-edge good guys shoot other well-meaning on-edge good guys? How many innocent bystanders get shot by well-meaning on-edge good guys mistakenly shooting at each other (doing the bad guys job for them)? How do any of the agitated and scared witnesses know how to tell the good guys from the bad guys? How do the first responders know how to tell the good guys from the bad guys? How long will it take to clear the campus of suspected (who knows how many based on wildly conflicting witness reports) additional shooters?

Real life isn't a Clint Eastwood movie.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Carl,

well said! The main reason the UT security team and Austin police do not want concealed handguns on campus.

I recently read a quote from a chief of police somewhere in Texas who said if he thought arming everyone was the answer in eliminating crime, he would be on the steps of the police station handing out guns.

[Booth]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

Carl,

well said! The main reason the UT security team and Austin police do not want concealed handguns on campus.

I would say that's the main reason why most rational people don't want concealed handguns on campus.

[mj2749]

I'm pretty sure I knew what I was saying when I mentioned "random". That is why I provided you the example of the robbery of the German Tourist couple who stopped to take a picture of the Capitol. I know exactly where most of the crimes in Austin take place, trust me, but you are referring to certain crimes. You don't think sexual assaults happen in northwest Austin? You would be incorrect in that assumption.
As far as confusion when the police arrive after a shooting, CHL holders are taught what to do and how to interact with the Police. At least in my course they were. If you're stupid enough to be standing around with a gun in your hand upon seeing the Police, well, maybe that's natural selection at work.
I'm also a little confused as to what the difference is whether you know your attacker or not. Dead is dead.
We're digressing however.
I will simply leave it at this. I've been carrying a weapon for a living in one way or another since I joined the military at age 17. I'm in my forties now. I have personally seen many times what happens to people who have the thought process of: "It will never happen to me because I'm careful and I don't put myself in those kinds of situations". When crime finds them, they are always shocked, always in disbelief and simply can't comprehend how something like this could happen to them. After all, they were careful their entire life! If anyone on this board feels comfortable NOT being able to defend themselves or their loved ones/SO's, then that is something they will have to live with should, God forbid, anything actually happen. I personally couldn't live with myself if I knew someone I cared about died because I wouldn't or couldn't defend them properly. That's just me. I respect everyone's right to make their own choices, that's what makes our Country great. I also enjoy hearing the different view points. It's enlightening and interesting to see the cross section of views on here. Have a great weekend everybody!

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Just one little comment on your comment about knowing your attacker. One thing you have control over in your life is choosing where you go, what you do, and the type of people you come in contact with. As I said, people in the adult sex industry put themselves in more dangerous situations than the average person as the 2 strippers found out. Hang with criminals or hang out in the wrong sections of town and you put your life in more danger than those that do not. So while it is true that it doesn't matter if you know your attacker or not -- dead is dead -- you do have the ability to minimize the possibility of being shot by someone you know by choosing your "friends wisely".

BTW, do you know that a person can legally carry a concealed weapon in the state of Texas without ever firing it? Actually, a person can obtain a CHL without even owning a gun!!

I am now 60+. Have visited cities such as NY, Boston, Washington DC, Richmond, Miami, Atlanta, Dallas, SA, Houston, Mobile, Chicago, SF, LA, etc. Visited England, Germany, Italy, Spain, Mexico, and countless islands in the Carribean. Never had an incident where I ever needed a gun for self defense. I live my life without fear -- I do not fear a break-in at my house while I am there. I do not fear a car-jacking. I do not fear being being attacked while out in public. If you or anyone else wants to worry about such things happening to you and live in fear of them happening, it is your right to arm yourself.

[78704]

Originally Posted by Booth

What the gun rights advocates are conveniently overlooking is that the UT shooter was not a criminal, at least not until his final hour. There was no reason why he couldn't legally own a gun and yet look what he did. Do you really want guys like that to be armed?

Of course not. What the gun law advocates are conveniently overlooking is that banning guns on campus didn't stop him from carrying on campus.