Smoking, same rights as free speech?

[TxBrandy]

I think the public will decide if it increases business or not. If I sell a soda for $2.00 a can and the business across from me sells it for $1.00, then yea I expect I would go out of business because everyone would go across the way. Free enterprise isn't it? (Sorry economics is not my forte). But yea, I think it is fair. The owner that is losing business can choose to either do "the right thing" or choose to compete.

Honestly though, with more non smokers than smokers I don't see that scenario working except the opposite way.

Bovine Feces! Heh, that made me giggle.

[Ansley]

Originally Posted by TxBrandy

Honestly though, with more non smokers than smokers I don't see that scenario working except the opposite way.

I tend to agree with you Brandy. Except at the Atlanta airport. The bars that you can smoke in are packed. When I worked at the airport the smoking bars were where the employees wanted to work. We knew they would be packed. Plus smokers tip better than non smokers.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by Doove

To paraphrase: It doesn't fit in with my argument so it must not make sense.

No stupid. Its because the market for non-smoking restuarants is about 3x that of smoking restuarants.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

No stupid. Its because the market for non-smoking restuarants is about 3x that of smoking restuarants.

Bingo! We are debating a very small niche market in the grand scheme of things. Restaurants and/or Night spots where smokers would like a puff after dinner or while having a couple of pops.

Why not let the market address this consumer need?

There are plenty of alternatives that cater to the people that don't want to go to these establishments....

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by Ansley

I tend to agree with you Brandy. Except at the Atlanta airport. The bars that you can smoke in are packed.

That's an anomaly caused by government interference -- i.e., banning smoking everywhere else.

[China Doll]

If the smoking establishments are few in number, the people will flock. There are plenty of incentives for businesses to remain nonsmoking were the laws to change.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

No stupid. Its because the market for non-smoking restuarants is about 3x that of smoking restuarants.

Geez louise, what is with you people and the name calling already. Anyways, before the smoking ban, i don't remember any restaurants or bars in my area that were non-smoking only. Not a single one. And they had the option to be non-smoking. So to keep saying "just give them a choice" seems like it's little more than to say "let's go back to all establishments allowing smoking".

I don't think it's illogical to think that a restaurant, if all other restaurants were allowing smoking, would allow smoking whether they cared to or not. This way, they wouldn't lose the smokers, and since every other restaurant was doing it, they wouldn't lose non-smokers either.

This simply puts everyone on a level playing field, and let's the quality of the restaurant determine it's success or failure. Not whether or not it's willing to expose it's employees to a risk it shouldn't have to expose them to.

And i didn't say it was a singular reason for a ban. Nor did i say it was even a compellingly strong reason. But it is something that i'm sure some business owners actually appreciate, even if they would allow smoking if they were able/forced to.

And for the record, PJ. I'm Dopey, not Stupid. Pay attention.

[LAVixian]

Ohhhh, so many things I would love to SAY on this topic since I am an avid smoker myself.... but I shall keep it simple... I think it is wrong to outcast smokers for the same reason i think it would be wrong to tell a non-smoker to kiss my ass, lol. It's just wrong on so many levels. There was nothing wrong with the restaurants when they had smoking and non-smoking sections. If you didn't like smoke, you didn't go around it. I am very respectfull about another person's health. I won't do it while I am working, I won't BLOW IT in your face.... but as soon as you flogg me for it, oh buddy, the battle will begin!

I won't degrade a person for wanting a big mac w/extra cheese, therefore, I expect the same polite treatment.

[petiteassman]

and i would DIE to kiss your ass. as far as im concerned you can BLOW anywher your little heart desures. god you are sexy

Originally Posted by LAVixian

Ohhhh, so many things I would love to SAY on this topic since I am an avid smoker myself.... but I shall keep it simple... I think it is wrong to outcast smokers for the same reason i think it would be wrong to tell a non-smoker to kiss my ass, lol. It's just wrong on so many levels. There was nothing wrong with the restaurants when they had smoking and non-smoking sections. If you didn't like smoke, you didn't go around it. I am very respectfull about another person's health. I won't do it while I am working, I won't BLOW IT in your face.... but as soon as you flogg me for it, oh buddy, the battle will begin!

I won't degrade a person for wanting a big mac w/extra cheese, therefore, I expect the same polite treatment.

[TxBrandy]

Well how about this... and once again I am referring to the time when Austin was having the debate and I haven't kept up with the law so this may be a moot point or my information may be incorrect... I remember the discussion of allowing smoking only in pool halls/bingo parlors and perhaps similar businesses but banned everywhere else. Have something similar to a sexually oriented business regulation. Post signs, hell even restrict it to a certain zoning district for the same reasons as the SOB (public health).

[LAVixian]

Originally Posted by petiteassman

and i would DIE to kiss your ass. as far as im concerned you can BLOW anywher your little heart desures. god you are sexy

Lol, well I for one would love to meet a non-smoker who would DIE to kiss my ass... and I promise that you would LOVE my BLOWING.....

[am-a-pleaser]

I think many rights are taken from people for many reasons. Sometimes it goes too far. Individuals have rights and responsibilities. Society norms lead to rules. The folks weighing in here, seem to include those who are tolerant and respectful of others' opinions, as well as some who appear not to.

Some statics to ponder. I got this info from internet searches.

U. S. cigarette related deaths per year 400,000
Average life years lost from smoking 12
Average Retirment age in U. S. 62
Average length of retirement in years 18
Average life expectancy 78

So, it seems like the average smoker will live to retirement age but die at age 66. And will collect 12 years less in Social Security payments.

Average monthly Soc Sec check per person 1,200
Average annual payout per person 14,400
Times 12 years Smoker's do not collect = 172,800
Times 400,000 deaths = 69,120,000,000 per year

Cost to Medicare for smoking
related health care 20,500,000,000 per year

Federal excise tax on cigarettes 18,400,000,000 per year

Many other statistics exist. That's the problem with stat's, many exist. Maybe someone needs to do a comprehensive study.

I have heard that Americans are living longer today than in the past, and the result is having a severe negative financial impact on Social Security. IMO, the continued decline of smokers in America is part of that. Also, imo, the limits on where smoking is allowed, leads to non-smokers living longer.

Based on the information available, smokers actually save the Soc. Sec. system money. Just think about how much money could be saved if more people smoked. Then, the ones still living could collect more from Soc. Sec.

Maybe Smokers are more fiscally responsible than others. Gosh it almost seems they are more Patriotic. Maybe we should all start smoking to save America, sacrificing our own lives for the greater good. (Can anyone see a tiny bit of sarcasm?)

Okay, I have to go now. I have kids to strap into their child safety seats, where forced restraint of children is legal. Drive in my car that emits pollutants that some will die from. Take them to daycare, parking far away because the empty handicapped spots are at the front. Then rush out, because the kids yelling affects my hearing. I know I will see at least one smoker outside trying to excercise his right while being courteous. Dare I yell "FIRE!!!" when I see him light up? Or is it my duty to walk over that 100 yard distance to breathe the smoke and thank him for being a Patriot.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by LAVixian

I won't do it while I am working, I won't BLOW IT in your face.... but as soon as you flogg me for it, oh buddy, the battle will begin!

This may be well intentioned, but let's face it, the reality of it doesn't work. Not "blowing smoke in my face" doesn't mean smoke isn't going to get in my face. That's like me saying i won't fart in your general direction (Monty Python, anyone?) so you shouldn't have a problem with my farting.

I find it interesting that you concede that you won't do it while working - a sentiment i would guess that's shared by most providers. Not to be snippy, but why would you have a different set of manners for your customers than you have for someone sitting 3 tables away from you in a restaurant?

I won't degrade a person for wanting a big mac w/extra cheese, therefore, I expect the same polite treatment.

And nobody would degrade you for wanting a cigarette in your own little private area. Nor would they force their big mac w/extra cheese into your bloodstream. Please have the same polite treatment for them.

[Ansley]

Originally Posted by Doove

Not to be snippy, but why would you have a different set of manners for your customers than you have for someone sitting 3 tables away from you in a restaurant?

LAVixian might have a different answer, but for me, money.

[LAVixian]

fact of the matter is, if you want to fart, then fart, you want a big mac, by all means, please do.. you want a cig, have one, i know i will. you don't, no problem at all... smoking is 100% banned in all places that serve food, so how could I blow it in your face while we are eating??? Unless you choose to sit outside under the canopy with me... then it's your problem because you choose to be outside instead of inside. All I am saying is that, I, as a smoker do not, whether in session, or out shopping, eating, socializing or whatever do not push my smoking habits on others. I just find it amusing that you think I would attempt to twist your arm over a smoke... maybe I should file a complaint on the next person whom farts in my presence and get a law placed against it... ridiculous, right?

Editing: banned in LA anyways