Austerity measures in Greece made things worse..

[Little Stevie]

This second fabricated "debt ceiling" fiasco is just a synonym for "austerity".

Austerity measures ALWAYS cause secondary recessions or even full-blown depressions when they are done on as large a scale as the Teapublican morons are attempting to use to stop Obama's recovery and re-election.

Helping the country is less important to them than taking over for the lobbyists and wealthy elite who keep them in office.

You have two ways to get out of a recession - inflating your way out like Bush and Obama agreed would be less risky or deflating your way out like Romney wanting to let GM and others fail. The downside risk of austerity creating a worldwide financial collapse accompanied by 30% unemployment is far too probable with the Teapublican obstructionist measures designed only to hurt Obama.

The 1% won't be terribly affected but the world's economy will.

You dumb asses are the ones who will be affected more than those who are in the upper 1%. It is NEVER a good thing when we lose jobs in any sector.

Demand drives the economy - not reduced spending and Cayman Island corporate headquarters or Swiss Bank Accounts.

Actually, I really am pretty well ready to watch the stupid people get what they are whining to get - a deep double dip recession or even a depression the size of the Great One. You think you are so smart. You've got it coming.

[Laz]

Originally Posted by Little Stevie

[SIZE=3]
You have two ways to get out of a recession - inflating your way out like Bush and Obama agreed would be less risky or deflating your way out like Romney wanting to let GM and others fail. The downside risk of austerity creating a worldwide financial collapse accompanied by 30% unemployment is far too probable with the Teapublican obstructionist measures designed only to hurt Obama.

The 1% won't be terribly affected but the world's economy will.

You dumb asses are the ones who will be affected more than those who are in the upper 1%. It is NEVER a good thing when we lose jobs in any sector.

Demand drives the economy - not reduced spending and Cayman Island corporate headquarters or Swiss Bank Accounts.

Actually, I really am pretty well ready to watch the stupid people get what they are whining to get - a deep double dip recession or even a depression the size of the Great One. You think you are so smart. You've got it coming.

Just a couple of observations. The first is that GM failed. Obama did not prevent its failure. He simply paid off his supporters by throwing taxpayer dollars at it. The failure could have been managed through the bankruptcy process just like many other businesses have gone through. The result would likely have been a company that is more stable and with a better foundation to build on.

The second observation is that consumption by itself does not drive an economy. Wealth creation requires the existence of goods and services as well. Simply printing money for people to spend without enhancing the production of goods and services will result in inflation which destroys wealth. If the government spent as much time finding ways to make it easy for business to operate as they do on regulating and taxing businesses they would actually get more tax revenue, job creation and deficit reduction. This country needs to go back to making things.It will create jobs which creates demand.

And my final observation is that you are correct in that nothing the government does will effect the 1%. Money gives people freedom. They can pack up and move if they need to so demonizing and threatening them is a waste of time. We would be better off if the government worked with them to find ways to enhance the US economy. They would most likely make more money in the process but who cares if it also helps thousands of US citizens.

[Fast Gunn]

Great!

. . . Do it and give us all some relief!

Originally Posted by TheDaliLama

Yep...take the pill for the pain and then die.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Laz

And my final observation is that you are correct in that nothing the government does will effect the 1%. Money gives people freedom. They can pack up and move if they need to so demonizing and threatening them is a waste of time.

Examples:

Facebook co-founder Saverin not only one to renounce U.S. citizenship over taxes

Around 1,800 U.S. citizens living abroad formally renounced their citizenship in 2011 — just like Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin — and many did so for tax purposes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/just-like-eduardo-nearly-1800-people-renounced-us-citizenship-this-year-over-taxes/2012/05/12/gIQAX1PQKU_story.html

[12blue4u]

So this guy who has more money (made here in the USA) than all of us decides he needs to keep even more so he renounces his citizenship. FU buddy. I, my family have sacrificed our blood for this country(I wondered why after going over there) and this chicken shit rich dude needs more. We should kick him out and not let him return. He made shitloads of money off our rules and now does not like them. Go live abroad and don't come back.

[joe bloe]

Claiming that austerity is making Greece worse is like an alchoholic that goes cold turkey and claims that drinking didn't make him sick, not drinking made him sick. Initially Greece may get worse without being artificially propped up with borrowed money, but in the long run the only hope for their survival is to live within their means.

[BigLouie]

Greece was living beyond its means even before it joined the euro. After it adopted the single currency, public spending soared.

Public sector wages, for example, rose 50% between 1999 and 2007 - far faster than in other eurozone countries. This is huge because a very large percentage of the population works for the government is one form or another. Basically they have way too many people working for the government.

And while money flowed out of the government's coffers, its income was hit by widespread tax evasion. So, after years of overspending, its budget deficit - the difference between spending and income - spiralled out of control.

When the global financial downturn hit, therefore, Greece was ill-prepared to cope.

Debt levels reached the point where the country was no longer able to repay its loans, and was forced to ask for help from its European partners and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in the form of massive loans.

In the short term, however, the conditions attached to these loans have compounded Greece's woes.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by 12blue4u

So this guy who has more money (made here in the USA) than all of us decides he needs to keep even more so he renounces his citizenship. FU buddy. I, my family have sacrificed our blood for this country(I wondered why after going over there) and this chicken shit rich dude needs more. We should kick him out and not let him return. He made shitloads of money off our rules and now does not like them. Go live abroad and don't come back.

Look on the bright side, Saverin probably voted Dimocrat.

Originally Posted by BigLouie

Greece was living beyond its means even before it joined the euro. After it adopted the single currency, public spending soared.

Public sector wages, for example, rose 50% between 1999 and 2007 - far faster than in other eurozone countries. This is huge because a very large percentage of the population works for the government is one form or another. Basically they have way too many people working for the government.

And while money flowed out of the government's coffers, its income was hit by widespread tax evasion. So, after years of overspending, its budget deficit - the difference between spending and income - spiralled out of control.

When the global financial downturn hit, therefore, Greece was ill-prepared to cope.

Debt levels reached the point where the country was no longer able to repay its loans, and was forced to ask for help from its European partners and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in the form of massive loans.

In the short term, however, the conditions attached to these loans have compounded Greece's woes.

+1

[nwarounder]

Originally Posted by 12blue4u

So this guy who has more money (made here in the USA) than all of us decides he needs to keep even more so he renounces his citizenship. FU buddy. I, my family have sacrificed our blood for this country(I wondered why after going over there) and this chicken shit rich dude needs more. We should kick him out and not let him return. He made shitloads of money off our rules and now does not like them. Go live abroad and don't come back.

Thanks for serving, but fyi, he already left so we can't kick him out. I am curious why you are so mad at him? He did not force anyone to join, participate or advertise on FB, he paid his taxes while he was here, and did not break any U.S. laws. Do you think you are somehow entitled to part of his retirement now, or what?

[Texas Contrarian]

BigLouie concisely summed up the problem in post #37.

A couple of things I've read lately point up the resentment Greek taxpayers have toward their corrupt and unserious government.

Reports indicate that a number of doctors in Athens will give you quite a nice discount if you pay in cash -- and especially if you hand them U.S. dollars. In some instances, investigators have claimed that incomes reported on tax returns could barely cover the rent or mortgage payments on the taxpayers' villas. I'm not sure whether many prosecutions have resulted from these findings, but suspect that quite a bit of that cash has managed to find its way into the pockets of the tax department's "investigators." That's the Greek way! (Well, at least in that regard. After all, this is a P4P site!)

In many of the affluent areas of Athens, a large percentage of homeowners have backyard swimming pools, and are legally required to report them to the property tax departments. Relatively few have done so, since it has always been difficult to peer into people's back yards. Conseqently, most homeowners got away with it. But now, with widely available satellite imagery, the authorities have a much easier time spotting the non-reporters.

It didn't take long for a couple of guys to come up with the idea that there might be substantial demand for camouflage pool covers that look like typical backyard landscaping from above. Satellite imagery of the widely-available type is good enough to spot those bright blue pool covers, but doesn't offer enough resolution to discover the ones designed to look like grass or landscape features.

It's always been the case that corrupt and unserious governments encourage higher levels of illegal tax evasion.

[Little Stevie]

X....X....X

Originally Posted by Laz

Just a couple of observations. The first is that GM failed. Obama did not prevent its failure. He simply paid off his supporters by throwing taxpayer dollars at it. The failure could have been managed through the bankruptcy process just like many other businesses have gone through. The result would likely have been a company that is more stable and with a better foundation to build on.

X = Wrong. Your definition of failure is tethered to statements of opinion (solely your own) and does not reflect the overwhelming majority of definitions from many others. Your definition of success GM might have obtained through BANKRUPTCY is sheer supposition and hypothesis.

The second observation is that consumption by itself does not drive an economy. Wealth creation requires the existence of goods and services as well. Simply printing money for people to spend without enhancing the production of goods and services will result in inflation which destroys wealth. If the government spent as much time finding ways to make it easy for business to operate as they do on regulating and taxing businesses they would actually get more tax revenue, job creation and deficit reduction. This country needs to go back to making things.It will create jobs which creates demand.

X = Wrong! Your equation fails on balance. Taxes on businesses as well as regulations actually went down BEFORE the collapse and remained constant except for a single (now-lifted) deep water drilling embargo. Even the law for reducing emissions was rolled back under Bush and then the rollback was extended under Obama until a graduated system was put in place this year that is still more lenient than the Clean Air Act first prescribed. Your false assumption that regulation and taxes stifled demand and production is 100% false.

And my final observation is that you are correct in that nothing the government does will effect the 1%. Money gives people freedom. They can pack up and move if they need to so demonizing and threatening them is a waste of time. We would be better off if the government worked with them to find ways to enhance the US economy. They would most likely make more money in the process but who cares if it also helps thousands of US citizens.

X = Wrong. The assumption that creating wealth for the 1% or whatever percentage the wealthy is set at is simply fool's gold. Never has that "trickle down effect" of wealth distribution worked to create more or better jobs. Under Bush, his tax incentives filed to create 1/10th the jobs that Clinton's only slightly higher taxes produced. Today, corporations are sitting on record amounts of cash and income but that has not created jobs in America. In fact, most are shifting as many jobs as they can to other countries because of sweatshop wages.

[Laz]

The fact that GM required a bailout proves it failed. Ask GM's investors if it failed. They lost a lot of money in the failure. Just because you throw billions of dollars at a business to keep it alive does not mean it did not fail. Just so you do not misunderstand I am NOT blaming Obama for GM's failure. The management of GM owns that responsibility. I do criticize him for the government involvement in handling that failure.

Taxes and regulations before Obama were not that great. Obama has added a large quantity of regulations. My point is that we need to evaluate the total cost of doing business in the US versus other countries. Labor is just one factor. If we overhaul our system so that we are competitive we will get more manufacturing in the US.

On the 1% my point is that I am not as concerned with their income as I am in creating opportunity for everyone else. They have capital that can be used and invested so that business activity increases in the US. That will benefit everyone. However, if we are so hung up on them making money and trying to make sure they do not benefit they will invest elsewhere.

[Little Stevie]

Thanks for that non-answer. Basically you want foreign regulations is what you are saying. I'm sure Bill Clinton, Tyson Foods and Bo Pilgrim would love it is they were allowed to dump chicken entrails into the Arkansas, Sabine or Mississippi Rivers just as Exxon and BP would love it if people would just "get over" their major spills.

BTW, you might remember when Lee Iaccoca got Chrysler a loan and paid it back just like GM is doing. GM probably would not have survived bankruptcy with a workable market share and its job losses would have done more to the economy than the investor losses did.

[Laz]

You are making the false argument that we either over regulate or have no regulation. I am simply arguing for smarter simpler regulation. You make the assumption the the corporations have no desire to be responsible. I would argue that they know it is in their own best interest to be responsible and will behave accordingly.

As for the GM bankruptcy I will disagree but neither of us will ever know who was correct.

[IIFFOFRDB]

Originally Posted by Little Stevie

Thanks for that non-answer. Basically you want foreign regulations is what you are saying. I'm sure Bill Clinton, Tyson Foods and Bo Pilgrim would love it is they were allowed to dump chicken entrails into the Arkansas, Sabine or Mississippi Rivers just as Exxon and BP would love it if people would just "get over" their major spills.

BTW, you might remember when Lee Iaccoca got Chrysler a loan and paid it back just like GM is doing. GM probably would not have survived bankruptcy with a workable market share and its job losses would have done more to the economy than the investor losses did.

How does a oil spill in the Gulf affect a north Texas Girl named little stevie?