George Zimmerman Arrested -- Finally!!

[Mike Vronsky]

F-Sharp - you ignore the facts. You utilize straw man for the purpose of attempting to prove a fallacy that Zimmerman was lying jumping on the liberal medai, Al Sharpton, Rev Wright, Jessie Jackson bandwagon. So, you want to gloss over Martin's background than you need to ignore everything about Zimmerman with the exception of exactly what happened that caused Zimmerman to legally shoot Martin.

Angela Corey was aware when she submitted an affidavit that did not contain the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. She deliberately withheld evidence that supported Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense. The New York Times has reported that the police had “a full face picture” of Zimmerman, before paramedics treated him, that showed “a bloodied nose.” The prosecutor also had photographic evidence of bruises to the back of his head. Yet the liberal media and race baters likes of Al Sharpton and yourself ignore the facts and continue a tirade.

In the end if Zimmerman verbally provoked Martin, but Martin then got on top of Zimmerman and banged his head into the ground, broke his nose, bloodied his eyes and persisted in attacking Zimmerman — and if Zimmerman couldn’t protect himself from further attack except by shooting Martin — he would have the LEGAL right to do that. And this is the fact that you ignore.

The only racist person is the one you see when you look at the mirror. Its obvious you must hate White and Hispanic people and believe they should all go to hell. Maybe the issue is not comprehension or facts with you, maybe its the fact that your so stoned 24/7 you can't tell fact from fiction.

The question that begs to be answered is if you were getting the crap beat out of you MMA style and thought you were going to die after having your head slammed against concrete and barrage of punches would you continue to let the person beat you till you died?

What we do know is that Zimmerman has bodily injuries caused by Martin the aggressor. Martin's knuckles have injuries due to causing the injuries on Zimmerman. Martin was shot in "SELF DEFENSE" Period.

Can you say NOT GUILTY!

How you portray Martin / Zimmerman -> http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogsp...to-minute.html

What the real Martin looks like ->
http://folksrtalking.com/2012/03/tra...by-his-tweets/

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Oh come now silly Dante. You don't need to look at Martin's background, because Martin was not doing anything wrong. You're simply grasping at straws now that it's been proven to you that there's no way Zimmerman is telling the truth about what happened that night. Martin was not a drug dealer or a burglar, and had no such criminal record of being either of those things. All you really know for a fact is he was a black kid with a very small trace of marijuana in his system, the rest is nothing but pure conjecture based on your own personal prejudices against young black males.

What if it was, oh I dunno...Aaron Paul who was shot and killed by Zimmerman? He's not a drug dealer, but he sure looks the part, and I am confident he's hit a few bongs in his day. How about Miley Cirus? No doubt she's inhaled a little cannabis in her young days. You need to just admit you're a racist and move on with your life. Your arguments and ridiculous statements will then make much more sense in that context.

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by Carl

Folks, here's what I see and don't see when I look at the evidence:

1) I see: injuries to Martin (other than the fatal gunshot wound), one abrasion on one finger. What I don't see: More abrasions and busted up knuckles which would be consistent with administering a grievous bodily harm/life-threatening beating. I don't see claw marks or scratches to his face or eyes, bruises or marks to his genitals or abdominal/solar plexus area indicating the sorts of injuries one might expect in a street fight from an opponent acting defensively, putting up a fight.


2) I see: injuries to Zimmerman, abrasions on his scalp, some blood on the back of his head. What I don't see: No significant swelling in a police photo taken a few a hours later to a nose reported (the next day) to have been broken. In the fights I've seen that resulted in an obvious broken nose (though, I guess, technically a hairline fracture is still a fracture), within a few minutes the area swells up and the recipient looks like they're almost squinting. I also don't see a lot more blood. Scalp wounds are right up there with fingertip wounds for profuse bleeding. I've bled at least as much cracking my skull on a kitchen cabinet while working on pipes under my sink. My life was not in danger. I can say that I have seen people who fell on a sidewalk from their rollerblades, bikes and just walking who looked more severely injured than Zimmerman. They did not seem to feel that their lives were endangered by their injuries, though I cannot say that in every case conclusively, because I never had the chance to ask many of them how they felt since some just cussed a little and went on their way.

3) I see reports from a witness describing Martin as being on top and doing an MMA style ground and pound and warning Martin off by telling him he's calling 911. What I don't see: a witness rushing to the aid of someone that seems to be in imminent danger of losing their life or being crippled or maimed, no swinging of a frying pan or putter or a tennis racket or a desk lamp in an effort to save a life in immediate danger.

What it looks like to me is that Zimmerman, already pursing someone that a police dispatcher told him not to follow, somehow got into a fist fight, was getting his ass handed to him and either got angry or panicked, and shot his opponent to win the fistfight. Maybe he's a pussy that didn't know how to fight. But if he's getting punched by Martin with both hands, ground and pound style, Zimmerman's hands should have been free. Martin could not be pinning Zimmerman's hands down and be still punching him simultaneously. There are no marks on Martin to indicate that Zimmerman tried to claw, bite, gouge or nutpunch/ballclaw his way out of trouble, like I would expect to see in a street fight. He went straight to the "nuclear" option, his 9mm, to end the fight.

I conclude that he may have been in fear for his life or of great bodily harm. But I also conclude that if he was, he was not reasonable in that belief. A witness did not seem to believe that, otherwise I would expect that they would have done something, anything, to immediately intervene, with whatever they might have at hand and turn the altercation into a 2 on 1. And there's no evidence to suggest that Zimmerman had even attempted to use, let alone exhausted, any non-lethal "dirty fighting" retaliatory options.

In my opinion he's guilty, at a minimum, of voluntary manslaughter.

Amen.

[Artist Formally Known As]

Here is the biggest fact. George Zimmerman should have never got out and followed Trayvon. Had he not followed him and let the police do there job we would not be talking about this. I for one am sick of hearing about it. The media loves to play on the race issue and it pisses me off.

14 pages of a pissing match.

[Mike Vronsky]

Read below

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Amen.

Originally Posted by Carl
Folks, here's what I see and don't see when I look at the evidence:

1) I see: injuries to Martin (other than the fatal gunshot wound), one abrasion on one finger. What I don't see: More abrasions and busted up knuckles which would be consistent with administering a grievous bodily harm/life-threatening beating. I don't see claw marks or scratches to his face or eyes, bruises or marks to his genitals or abdominal/solar plexus area indicating the sorts of injuries one might expect in a street fight from an opponent acting defensively, putting up a fight.

Trayvon Martin’s autopsy showed that he had injuries to his knuckles, consistent with Martin punching out Zimmerman. Which means that the funeral director lied, but reading between the lines there were no other injuries to Martin. So the evidence is completely consistent with Trayvon throwing the first punch and beating up Zimmerman who was incapable of fighting back. Travon had hematomas on his knuckles.

2) I see: injuries to Zimmerman, abrasions on his scalp, some blood on the back of his head. What I don't see: No significant swelling in a police photo taken a few a hours later to a nose reported (the next day) to have been broken. In the fights I've seen that resulted in an obvious broken nose (though, I guess, technically a hairline fracture is still a fracture), within a few minutes the area swells up and the recipient looks like they're almost squinting. I also don't see a lot more blood. Scalp wounds are right up there with fingertip wounds for profuse bleeding. I've bled at least as much cracking my skull on a kitchen cabinet while working on pipes under my sink. My life was not in danger. I can say that I have seen people who fell on a sidewalk from their rollerblades, bikes and just walking who looked more severely injured than Zimmerman. They did not seem to feel that their lives were endangered by their injuries, though I cannot say that in every case conclusively, because I never had the chance to ask many of them how they felt since some just cussed a little and went on their way.

You experienced bleeding from cracking your skull against a cabinet and saw people who fell on sidewalk from rollerblades, etc. Was the cabinet consistently cracking your skull? Was the person repeatedly falling over and over from their roller blades? Do you not agree that there is a difference between being hit once by an object compared to being repeatedly beaten by an assailant? Have you ever been in a fight where you were repeatedly beaten and could not defend yourself? If not you cannot compare.

3) I see reports from a witness describing Martin as being on top and doing an MMA style ground and pound and warning Martin off by telling him he's calling 911. What I don't see: a witness rushing to the aid of someone that seems to be in imminent danger of losing their life or being crippled or maimed, no swinging of a frying pan or putter or a tennis racket or a desk lamp in an effort to save a life in immediate danger.

The fight was over too quickly for anyone to get involved. Do you have any experience of how long it takes for a fight to last? How many fights have you been involved in recently? Do you know Martin's intent? How long was Martin going to beat Zimmerman? Martin was beating Zimmerman and bashing his head against the pavement. Zimmerman's head was bet more than once as he had more than one injury to the back of his head.

What it looks like to me is that Zimmerman, already pursing someone that a police dispatcher told him not to follow, somehow got into a fist fight, was getting his ass handed to him and either got angry or panicked, and shot his opponent to win the fistfight. Maybe he's a pussy that didn't know how to fight. But if he's getting punched by Martin with both hands, ground and pound style, Zimmerman's hands should have been free. Martin could not be pinning Zimmerman's hands down and be still punching him simultaneously. There are no marks on Martin to indicate that Zimmerman tried to claw, bite, gouge or nutpunch/ballclaw his way out of trouble, like I would expect to see in a street fight. He went straight to the "nuclear" option, his 9mm, to end the fight.

Again, have you experienced being constantly beaten? Why don't you go to a controlled environment and pay someone to spar you and see how you do. No marks on Martin cause Martin was beating the crap out of Zimmerman. In addition, Martin was a skilled fighter where apparently Zimmerman was not which is no surprise as he was a burglar, drug user and possible drug dealer. Martin did not pin Zimmerman's hands down and that does not support that Zimmerman was NOT being pummeled by Martin.

Now there is much more extensive medical evidence that would tend to support Zimmerman’s version of events. This version, if true, would establish self-defense even if Zimmerman had improperly followed, harassed and provoked Martin.


A defendant, under Florida law, loses his “stand your ground” defense if he provoked the encounter — but he retains traditional self-defense if he reasonably believed his life was in danger and his only recourse was to employ deadly force. BOOYAH

I conclude that he may have been in fear for his life or of great bodily harm. But I also conclude that if he was, he was not reasonable in that belief. A witness did not seem to believe that, otherwise I would expect that they would have done something, anything, to immediately intervene, with whatever they might have at hand and turn the altercation into a 2 on 1. And there's no evidence to suggest that Zimmerman had even attempted to use, let alone exhausted, any non-lethal "dirty fighting" retaliatory options.

In my opinion he's guilty, at a minimum, of voluntary manslaughter.

WRONG - Can you say NOT GUILTY!!!!

[Dr. Pecker]

F shart, are you a negro or just another self hating white guy?

[Carl]

Actually dante, you can download the medical examiner's autopsy report here.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/12068703...autopsy-report

There are 6 pages of text and one page of figures. On page two the external examination of the body states that the condition of the face is unremarkable (which means no cuts or scrapes or anything unusual). On page three under the section Evidence of Injury the bulk of the text details the gunshot wound to the chest. There is only one line referring to any other injury. It notes only one 1/4 inch x 1/8 inch abrasion on the fourth (ring) finger of the left hand. That's it. Nothing else. Not the bruises and busted knuckles one would expect from being on the verge of beating someone to death with bare fists. So, there's no evidence of offensive injuries consistent with Zimmerman's story that the kid was beating him so badly that he was in fear for his life. There's also no evidence of injuries that might be considered retaliatory, like cuts, scrapes or gouges on Martin's face or hands.

Released photos taken by the police the night of the shooting can be found here, a local Florida TV station.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/photo-galle...storyid=255685

Zimmerman's facial and head injuries do not appear to be grave or visibly severe, after several hours had passed since the altercation. There should have been enough time for swelling and blackening of the eyes to start appearing. Also, look closely at the photos of his hands. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of bruising or abrasions that one might expect from non-lethal retaliation or resistance or defensive blocking of blows.

George Zimmerman can claim he was in fear of his life. You can believe him. But it doesn't seem plausible. The scarcity and limited nature of the fight-related injuries to both parties depicted by the autopsy report and the photographs suggest that Zimmerman didn't put up much of a defensive fist fight and as soon as he reached the the conclusion that he wasn't going to have an easy time winning the fight, he just decided to shoot his way out of it. The appearance of his injuries do not look like those of man that was in any reasonable imminent danger of being beaten to death or crippled or maimed. He also refused to go to the hospital. I think most people that sincerely thought they had just been injured severely enough that they were in fear of their life and safety might have wanted to swing by the emergency room.

And for the record, yeah, I've been in a number of fights when I was younger. A few of which where I was getting pummeled, since I was a runt and got picked on with some regularity. Never felt in fear for my life. Fighting back dirty and then running like a bat out of hell worked well enough for me. That's why I don't believe that Zimmerman could be that helpless. Even if he felt he had to resort to gunplay, his holster was in his waist band. You know what would have been in easy reach given the relative position of the two combatants? Martin's nutsack. Why not punch it or rake/rack it? If he pulled out the gun, what would have been a shorter draw? Martin's hip, his thigh, his kneecap, or his chest? A shot to any of the first three would be less likely to be fatal than the bullet into Martin's heart and still would have ended the fight.

I don't see how you can say that Zimmerman was so rattled and panicked that he couldn't mount a defense with his fists and yet be so clear headed that he could form the complex intent, under a hail of life-threatening blows, to draw a weapon, guide it to Martin's chest and pull the trigger.

[Billy_Saul]

If a guy punched me, knocked me down, jumped on top of me. and started beating me, I'd shoot him as immediately as possible. To think there is a certain amount of defensive punches or maneuvers that must take place prior to the use of the firearm in that situation is ridiculous. Why risk tumbling around and losing control of your firearm once the attacker has gained the upper hand.

[Carl]

Well, if you sincerely believe that it's the correct, justifiable, reasonable and legal course of action to use a firearm and apply deadly force at the first opportunity in every instance when an individual is losing a fistfight, then I believe that we will never see eye-to-eye on this.

[Billy_Saul]

Originally Posted by Carl

Well, if you sincerely believe that it's the correct, justifiable, reasonable and legal course of action to use a firearm and apply deadly force at the first opportunity in every instance when an individual is losing a fistfight, then I believe that we will never see eye-to-eye on this.

I didn't say that at all.

[Carl]

I know, but it begs the point, can there be a uniform protocol for what is reasonable use of deadly force, across all situations? Or are there too many variables for a once-size-fits-all solution?

Put simply, this is why I do not automatically buy the argument that Zimmerman acted in reasonable fear for his life and that he was automatically justified in killing Martin.

Here's a picture of a guy with a broken nose:


On this kid's blog he states it came from being sucker punched by a 6'1" 300 lb body builder dude. Now, if Zimmerman's injuries looked like this I'd probably be sympathetic and say, yeah, he reasonably needed to shoot and kill Martin to preserve his life and health.

But Zimmerman's injury that night, a few hours after the fight, with no trip to the hospital, looked like this:


To me, it seriously strains credulity to believe him and his story at face value, that he was so in fear for his life and safety that he had no other recourse than to shoot to kill. That punching Martin in the nuts, or grabbing and biting a hand that was punching him or even drawing his weapon and firing a survivable (and likely crippling) shot to Martin's hip or knee were all completely out of the question. How can somebody be be beaten to the point of being reasonably (which I admit is a relative and subjective term in this case) in fear for their life and still look like that?

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by Grathic

Damn SpeedRacerXXX, I've really been trying to just watch from the sidelines here, but that has to be just about the worst liberal bit of trash so far. Laws do NOT give people rights. The Constitution does NOT give people rights. Hell, even the Bill of Rights does NOT give people rights.

People HAVE rights.

Say it with me now:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...

You can read the rest in many places if you are interested. The Bill of Rights was meant to prevent the government from taking the rights away from people, not to grant rights to people. The fact that people have allowed government to take rights away anyway is a whole other topic.

I am not going to take the time to argue with you. If you want, you can take your argument to the editors of "Websters New World Dictionary" who define "rights" thusly:

"A right is that which a person has a just claim to; power, privilege. etc, that belongs to a person by law, nature, or tradition."

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by Billy_Saul

I didn't say that at all.

Actually, that's exactly what you said.

Originally Posted by Billy_Saul

If a guy punched me, knocked me down, jumped on top of me. and started beating me, I'd shoot him as immediately as possible.

Of course, the rationale as to why this guy was beating on you might be taken in to consideration, but again in Zimmerman's case, he instigated the situation by stalking and possibly Martin. Further, regardless of what Dante's opinion papers say, one cannot claim self-defense under the law for an altercation they instigated. The moment he Zimmerman left his vehicle to pursue Martin, he lost any claim to self-defense he might have had. Lastly, we know for a fact that Zimmerman's account of what happened can't possibly be true. This can be proven by simply looking at the geography and where Zimmerman's car was, and where Martin was killed.

[Billy_Saul]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Actually, that's exactly what you said.

Where did I say: "it's the correct, justifiable, reasonable and legal course of action to use a firearm and apply deadly force at the first opportunity in every instance when an individual is losing a fistfight," ? I didn't. This is exactly the problem with trying to have a civil discussion with you Sharp, you just make stuff up and misrepresent things. It's just not worth the time and effort to go back and forth with you.

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Of course, the rationale as to why this guy was beating on you might be taken in to consideration,

Agree 100% with this. Zimmerman never should have left his vehicle. Especially so, being armed. For this Zimmerman certainly deserves a degree of responsibility. Whether it's 0% or 100% I simply don't know, but I feel confident that a jury having all the facts can figure it out. This should have been presented to a grand jury.

[PornPet69]

Originally Posted by Carl

I know, but it begs the point, can there be a uniform protocol for what is reasonable use of deadly force, across all situations? Or are there too many variables for a once-size-fits-all solution?

Put simply, this is why I do not automatically buy the argument that Zimmerman acted in reasonable fear for his life and that he was automatically justified in killing Martin.

Here's a picture of a guy with a broken nose:


On this kid's blog he states it came from being sucker punched by a 6'1" 300 lb body builder dude. Now, if Zimmerman's injuries looked like this I'd probably be sympathetic and say, yeah, he reasonably needed to shoot and kill Martin to preserve his life and health.

But Zimmerman's injury that night, a few hours after the fight, with no trip to the hospital, looked like this:


To me, it seriously strains credulity to believe him and his story at face value, that he was so in fear for his life and safety that he had no other recourse than to shoot to kill. That punching Martin in the nuts, or grabbing and biting a hand that was punching him or even drawing his weapon and firing a survivable (and likely crippling) shot to Martin's hip or knee were all completely out of the question. How can somebody be be beaten to the point of being reasonably (which I admit is a relative and subjective term in this case) in fear for their life and still look like that?

C'mon man, your comparing a 300 lbs body builder's punches to Martin's 150 lbs punches. Lets just put a picture of Rich Franklin's nose http://mikemaeder.com/wp-content/upl...chfranklin.jpg

A 185 lbs guy did that. What if Zimmerman thought he was about to get knockout and Martin might take his gun and shoot him? If that crossed his mind then he was really scared for his life. The information that I would like to know for this case is about the gun. Was the gun on safety or fire before the scuffle? Was it already cocked or did he have to cock it while he was on the ground? I think it would paint a clearer picture of what the mindset of Zimmerman on the night.

[Billy_Saul]

Originally Posted by PornPet69

the gun.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/