the az law what you think

[dirty dog]

Dress sales would go up in south america

[MsElena]

What I find very funny about this whole thing is how Az and you guys discussing this are only singling out Mexicans. There's a whole bunch of other races who are here illegally too, except some of them the cops wouldn't think of stopping because they look white.

Say and think what you will, but it is racial profiling at its best. Let's see if Sally from Sweden gets stopped or Eddie from England or John from Canada....the list could go on. They won't though, because they're white.

[dirty dog]

So your telling me that a million swedes and a million cadandians are crossing the border a year. Yes, there are other immigrants that are here illegally because of expired visa's etc. but there are not a million canadians crossing the border every year illegally, if there were I would be discussing them too. As for AZ since the people crossing their border are hispanics than the logical step would be to address hispanic immigration, if your telling me a million swedes are crossing the border into AZ but only Hispanics are being targeted with the law then I would say race is a factor, but thats not happening is it. Elena, no one is saying that no hispanics should be allowed to enter this country, they are only saying that they should do so legally and they are also saying the US government should be doing more to protect our borders, all of them, because one day someone is going to cross the border with a dirty bomb and kill a lot of people of all races. If you can honestly tell me that you believe that people should be allowed to cross the border at will, then I would be shocked. WE and I mean all americans should demand that our government does all it can to stop the flow of illegal immigration into this country. Maybe if this government had done something to stop this AZ would not have to adapt such drastic measures.

Using racism to divert attention away from the illegal activity going on is sad. I am sure the media will soon be filled with claims of racial profiling by every hispanic pulled over, even if they were doing 80 in a school zone.

[lacrew_2000]

If I were a cop, I just might pull over Sally from Sweden .

I think Arizona is justified with their law...but the underlying problem is how difficult it is to become a legal immigrant. Make it easier, give out work permits, require workers to have a 'sponsor company', to make sure that the worker is 'on the books'. Our economy is based on expansion, and our population is about to contract...so we need Mexican immigrants to come here, have a dog, 1.5 children, etc....settle down.

Our current system makes it so hard to immigrate, its the wild west. We will never stop the flow of immigrants...all we can do is make it more orderly. Open up the gate, require sponsors, require a background check, take a fingerprint and a DNA sample....and if anybody tries to bypass the gate, arrest and imprison, don't just deport.

[vitokc]

All a discussion like this does is throw fuel on a fire that has been just simmering until recently. This allows all law abiding Americans (including those on this forum) to pound their chest and stand up to these law breakers. Immigration was probably the furthest thing from their mind as they laced up their foreign made running or work shoes, drank their morning coffee from Colombia, watched the morning news on their Asian made television, then hopped into their foreign SUV to sit in front of their foreign made computer. Then they sit in their office, look out the window and watch the dark skinned workers from the lawn service hard at work. Just one more thought, ever notice out of all the pan handlers in this city, you will rarely see a Latino standing on a corner begging for cash. But you will see them at Home Depot looking for work.

[dirty dog]

Vito I dont believe anyone is saying that Hispanics are not hardworking good people.

[nsafun05]

One of the things that is being left out of this discussion is the fact that most of the Illegal immigrants are not coming to this county to become citizens but are in fact coming here because of the higher paying jobs. Lacrew 2000 had hit the nail on the head when he's referring to work visas and sponsor companies.

If we issue work visas to those who wish to work in this country where they'd be forced to pay taxes on their earnings, then I believe we'd see a drastic reduction of those wishing to cross our borders illegally. We'd also see a reduction in the government services that are being drained by illegals because we'd have the income tax money generated by documented workers to offset the use of these services. We'd also see less people using the resources of emergency rooms because the host companies would have to pay workman's comp insurance for their workers and perhaps even some kind of medical coverage......oh wait...Obamacare is going to take care of that so the U.S. tax payer would still have to pay for their health care.

[dirty dog]

NSA while what you say is true let me add a few more things, recently here in KC the Fed prosequted a hispanic individual for making fake identification cards, such as SS#, Birth Certificates, I9 identification. This documentation is then used to gain access to welfare, medicaid, foodstamps, so not only are they over here working for cash, they are milking the system for as much as they can get. He sold the complete fake document set for $40.00.

[MsElena]

DD,

No, I'm not saying that people should be allowed into the US at free will (didn't want to shock you). The government should've done something about this decades ago. People have been coming to the US illegally for hundreds of years.

I'm just sick and tired of the Hispanics ALWAYS being the ones who are targeted by groups, protests, etc for immigration issues. Yes, more Hispanics come into the US, but there are a ton of other people who are here illegally from other races. So when I see protesters targeting Hispanics, yes its racism. You do have to admit that its racial profiling, just like at the airports.

The government doesn't and hasn't been checking for expired visa's the way they should be. If they had been doing their job correctly then maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened or it wouldn't have reached the multitude it was. I'm using the 9/11 as a reference, so lets please not go down that road.

Do Hispanics milk the system? I'm sure some do, but lets also look in our own backyard. I can go to the Social Services offices in Omaha and see nothing but white and black folks waiting to talk to someone. Then when they leave, they get into a SUV with rims that cost more than a house payment. What's wrong with that picture? Again, the system is screwed up and until someone figures out how to stop people like that from milking system, its going to continue to happen.

I want the government to reform immigration laws, but it has to apply to all.

[dirty dog]

Elena, I am going to shock you, I agree with much of what you state. But I disagree with you that the motivation to act is racial and his is why I believe that. You are right, there has been illegal immigration for years and the complaints were just gentle grumblings in the background, people were not up in arms, reason, there was no violence involved. The problem has gotten so bad along the border that you have people in a daily basis crossing the border and committing crimes to include murder. This kind of activity is going to result in a response. Unfortunately for the Hispanic ethnic group as a whole, the majority of the perps involved in this type of criminal activity are of hispanic decent. So obviously you are going to have a targeted response. If there were murders, shootouts and kidnappings occuring in Niagra NY, then I am positive there would be some backlash against the Canadians.

Is it racial profiling, yes it is, but I dont believe profiling is wrong. If you are having buildings blown up and 10 out of 10 times the perp is a green martian, whats wrong with checking out green martians when you see them. If you have an area where 100% of the illegal immigrants are of hispanic decent, whats wrong with checking them out. Were not talking about putting them in lock up for a week, were talking about checking ID. If they cant prove their status whats wrong with checking them out and arresting them if they turn out to be here illegally. Everyone is acting like this law is saying to arrest and deport anyone of hispanic decent. It doesn't say that, it only says that people who fit certain criteria can be asked to prove their immigration status, this might include British Bob or Russian Reggie as well as Mexican Mark.

[Bartman1963]

Guys I haven't heard this mentioned and please address it. The AZ law will require Police to determine based on whatever training they have if a person is illegal. They can then demand of that person their "papers".

That is a pretty slippery slope isn't it? Wouldn't a lot of people on this board be pissed if AZ had passed a law that let the cops arrest you for a owning a gun if they thought you "looked illegal" based on their "training"?

Who here doesn't know a cop that's a total ass or stupid? You want that guy stopping you or your buddy because he "looks illegal?"

Shouldn't a reasonable person ask "what's next in AZ?"

We all hope nothing, but damn, having cops demand your papers based on whatever they are trained in? Come on guys! This goes to the heart of your liberties! Who's to say who looks "illegal"? Who does this "training" and who says they have it fair and just?

[Bartman1963]

Keep in mind that many countries we don't want to be like started out with similar policies that got bent into something terrible. This path is icy...

[kcbigpapa]

But DD, although this might apply to British Bob or Russian Reggie, you and I both know damned well who will be asked to provide identification. What if a US citizen of Hispanic descent refuses to show his ID, or better yet, what if he doesn't have it on him? Arresting him because he cannot prove he is a citizen may be legal, but is it American? So yes, this is a bill that mandates racial profiling. Does racially profiling equate to racism? Personally, I think so. This country has a history of such stupidity though. Don't believe me, ask a Japanese American that was living here during WWII.

Also, how the hell are the police going to have enough manpower to enforce the law? It is a lose-lose situation for law enforcement. If they don't enforce the law, citizens can sue them, if they do enforce the law, they get sued.

Arizona Sheriff Says He Will Refuse to Enforce Immigration Law

[MsElena]

Originally Posted by kcbigpapa

But DD, although this might apply to British Bob or Russian Reggie, you and I both know damned well who will be asked to provide identification. What if a US citizen of Hispanic descent refuses to show his ID, or better yet, what if he doesn't have it on him? Arresting him because he cannot prove he is a citizen may be legal, but is it American? So yes, this is a bill that mandates racial profiling. Does racially profiling equate to racism? Personally, I think so. This country has a history of such stupidity though. Don't believe me, ask a Japanese American that was living here during WWII.

Also, how the hell are the police going to have enough manpower to enforce the law? It is a lose-lose situation for law enforcement. If they don't enforce the law, citizens can sue them, if they do enforce the law, they get sued.

Arizona Sheriff Says He Will Refuse to Enforce Immigration Law

KC, you make a HUGE point and one that I forgot to address in my initial post.

I have many relatives who were born here from legal parents that look just like any other Hispanic person who came here illegal. None of them have papers because they're natural born Americans. What happens when one of them gets stopped and asked if they're legal and can prove it? They don't live in AZ, but other states are looking to follow suit and adopting the law. Out of my family, I'm the one who looks like a white chick to a point. I know if I was a little darker skinned and was stopped, hell no I wouldn't show ID to prove I'm from the US. I shouldn't have to prove that to anyone.

Again, if that law is to be enforced I want to see white, Chinese, etc people being asked to. Because there's a lot of white looking people here illegally to.

I second what KC said about the man power. Enforcing this law is going to take away from other crimes being committed, like murder, robbery, rapes, molesters, etc. And I'm fairly certain not every crime committed in AZ is done by a Hispanic person.

[dirty dog]

Well the police can ask anyone for their identification at anytime. Your native born relatives have drivers licenses that would prove their immigration status. The law does not state that they can just pull you over for looking hispanic. There are specific criteria which must be followed. You ask what happens when one gets stopped and can prove their cintizenship or legal status, they are released. Legal immigrants are required to carry your identification at all times, its the law. If they are stopped and dont have it then they will be detained, just like what happens when your stopped and dont have your drivers license, you can be detained. Its funny you guy are up in arms about racial profiling, but you have no problem when the Arab guy in line with you at Midwest air is questioned.

Papa, its not going to require additional manpwer, its not like their doing an immigration sweep. The purpose of the law is to allow the police to ask for identification when there is other probable cause to stop you. So you must be doing something else, you cannot just be stopped because your Mexican, its like the seat belt law, they cant stop you just because you dont have it on, but if you run a red light and are stopped you can then be given a ticket for not having it on.

Maybe I am missing something in the law, you are all acting like they will have officers driving around to just look for illegal aliens. Thats not what the law allows, so its not going to pull any officer away from any other duty. It only allows officer the flexability to ask for ID when they have pulled someone over for other reasons.

"Wouldn't a lot of people on this board be pissed if AZ had passed a law that let the cops arrest you for a owning a gun if they thought you "looked illegal" based on their "training"? "

Well if you had a gun on you and you did not have the proper CCW permit then you should be arrested. If you did not have a gun on you then how would they know you owned a gun? If you had one they have the right to ask for your CCW permit. BY law you are required to carry your permit with you anytime you have your gun with you. So if you dont have it you are at fault and should be arrested.

There is also a consitutional right to own a firearm, there is not a consitutional right to be an illegal alien. There is a right against illegal search and seizure, which the stringent probable cause requirments are to cover, but this will probably have to be handled through the court system.

I think everyone is missing the point on this whole issue. AZ passed this law for one reason. To show the Federal Government that further in-ction by them on the illegal immigration issue is not going to be tolerated. This law is a show of frustration over the politics of immigration. Wellendowed points out all the time the this law in AZ will cost the republicans votes. But this statement also illustrates the current governments fear of tackling this issue because they do not what to lose votes either. This failure to respond to this building crisis is going to result in bloodshed.

I just finished a class believe it or not in Minority relations, just took my final this morning. One of the things I learned is that when large numbers of immigrants move into an area, the Nativists begin getting resentful, because of the economic competition for jobs and resources. It is a normal part of the immigration process. No immigrent culture has arrived here and not experienced this resentment or hatred. IN the past the government impliments controls and restrictions which would slow the rate of immigration until the assimilation and culture transfussion has begun. Those times when the government did not stem the tide of immigration violence erupted. Look at it this way, have you ever been in a situation where you have had to be in close proximety with other people for long periods of time, say like when family comes to visit, so everyone is sleeping on the couch, waiting to use the restroom. Every day the tension builds until they either leave or there is a blow up. Thats whats occuring in AZ. You have increased competition for jobs, close proximety to others who are different than you. Its a powder kegg waiting to explode, it fuels hate and eventully racism. I am willing to bet that you are going to see an increase in racial violence, an increase in membership in hate groups and an escalation of hatred by people who would not normally demonstrate racial motivations, the government needs to act and it needs to act fast.