GM on top again

[seventonine]

I'm glad GM is selling cars. Although I'm unlikely to purchase their product, I hope they continue to perform well. I'm more worried about the drain created by the fixed costs that are tied to their 400,000+ retiree's and it's potential impact on the US economy.

According to Bloomberg, Aug 2011:
"GM, two years removed from bankruptcy court protection, may fall further behind obligations even as it makes strides in the marketplace. The Detroit-based automaker topped Toyota Motor Corp. in first-half global vehicle sales and increased U.S. market share to 20 percent this year through July from 19.2 percent a year earlier, aided by demand for the Chevrolet Cruze.

GM’s global pension plans were underfunded by $22.2 billion at the end of 2010, according to its 10-K regulatory filing. The shortfall for the U.S. was $12.4 billion. Those figures don’t take into account a stock contribution of about $2.2 billion that GM made to pensions in January [2011].

...The shortfall for GM’s U.S. pensions alone last year was bigger than the deficit in any large-cap company’s global plan except Exxon Mobil Corp., whose market value is more than nine times GM’s, according to CreditSights...."

[Guest032516]

Originally Posted by Lust4xxxLife

1. GM wasn't a bailout. it was an investment.

Huh? What does that even mean? Is that supposed to be an answer of some kind? GM could not get anyone in the private sector (i.e., from REAL investors) to lend them money. That is why they had to turn to government for a BAILOUT. Renaming it an "investment" does not make it so - whether it turns out to make money or not. The ends do not justify the means: if bailouts are bad policy (they are), they do not improve any just because some of them may work. You don't point at the winners, ignore the losers, and declare bailouts to be investments

Originally Posted by Lust4xxxLife

It is already clear that the investment will be profitable.L4L

Once again, PLEASE cite your source. Where did you read that the GM bailout will turn a profit? So far, we only have your word for it. And i don't believe you.

Originally Posted by Lust4xxxLife

It was a great move and I think we need to applaud that. Why not? Why not celebrate victories as much as we criticize failures?

Because we do not judge policies, particularly economic ones, based on individual victories or individual failures. The merits of a bailout policy should be judged by the balance between the aggregated victories and the aggregated losses. And it is pretty clear that our aggregate losses greatly outweigh (thus far0 our aggregated victories. Just look at how fast we are piling up debt. We have added TRILLIONS to the national debt. how many cars will GM have to sell to recoup that money?

Originally Posted by Lust4xxxLife

2. TARP is forecast to be profitable by mid-2013. I'm not totally happy with that because I think the Banks are still corrupt, but from a government/taxpayer perspective, TARP is not a money sink, it will be profitable.

Once again, please cite a source - any source. Where are you getting your "facts"?

[TexasDave555]

Solyndra was an "Investment" too. Many other similar failures....

All the bailout of GM did was screw investors and redistribute the ownership of the company into the hands of the unions. It was a colossal travesty of freedom and ownership rights. Bailouts are bad enough, they have happened in the past, but Obama and gang not only tossed money at a losing company, they then took ownership rights away from the investors who put money into it. That was true double taxation, perhaps even more. They paid tax on the money they earned to invest with, tax on the piddly dividends and returns, then had their principle investment itself confiscated against their will.

GM will fail its only a matter of time and it will be a number of years before the real story and details emerge as to the behind the scenes influence peddling that took place.

[Randy4Candy]

Well, I'm glad that all of the GM employees, as well as those in the huge number of support industries, weren't dumped into the unemployment pool at once. So far, we are being repaid by GM, Chrysler AND the banks who were TARPED - some against their will. The Chicken Littles may get their day. But, I hope they don't because there will be hell to pay if the sky does fall. Maybe if they do, we'll get lucky and benefit from a European Marshall Plan and the Chinese can send us their version of Gen. MacArthur.

[TexTushHog]

Originally Posted by durango95

GM Should have gone under, what Obama and congress did was unconstitutional. The government put about 3,000 small business owners under last year alone, more than 300 local restaurants that employed 3,000 people in the DFW area closed last year. The Obama administration and Democrats have a more than horrible record for hurting small business owners in this country. The raising of the minimum wage three times in three years were just the start of the great recession. Rasing minimum wage caused small business's to stop growing and hiring. Since small business in this country make up 55% of the total economy is it a surprise that we were into a very diffifcult economic time?

And the increases in minimum wages were passed before Obama entered office in the Fair Labor Standards Act amendments of 2007 signed by President Bush. The increases were accompanied by $4.8 billion in tax breaks for businesses. President Bush signed the bill the day after it was passed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Mi...ge_Act_of_2007

[HorseAround]

Interesting debate going on here.... Bottom line is that bailouts don't work.... Only prolongs or postpones the agony.... We the taxpayers own 30% of GM now.... I have to wonder if our founding fathers ever considered this scenario in our constitution.... I couldn't find it in my copy anywhere, maybe others in this forum could elaborate and point me to the passage....

[yaddayadda]

ebe6035, I think your on the right track. Some people think the constitution is only a "guideline" and outdated, others think its the "rules of the road" and should not be messed with.

The only thing I know is that both parties are chipping away at our freedoms every year....The Dems think the government is a big piggy bank to be raided at will and replenished at any cost. The Republicans think the government is a tool to implement social and moral agendas.....TARP was panic mode legislation and the only benefit is "saved" banks, jobs, pensions....blah blah blah....
The federal government has taken every penny and borrowed more and more and more..... and the true benefits are HUGE government salaries, retirement benefits, free health care for LIFE, pensions for LIFE........a congressman serves two terms (four years) and gets a lifetime pension and health care.....MY GOD when will it stop?
Left wind right wing ....same fucking chicken.

[Lust4xxxLife]

Originally Posted by ebe6035

Interesting debate going on here.... Bottom line is that bailouts don't work.... Only prolongs or postpones the agony.... We the taxpayers own 30% of GM now.... I have to wonder if our founding fathers ever considered this scenario in our constitution.... I couldn't find it in my copy anywhere, maybe others in this forum could elaborate and point me to the passage....

Actually, most of the available evidence would suggest that bailouts do work when executed effectively.

The US Government bailed out GM and Chrysler and both are trending upwards. The fucking despicable big banks were bailed out and they are doing better than ever (and have paid back their bailouts). Looks like the bailouts worked and looks like the government is going to make a profit. What's not working?

Chapter 11 is a different type of bailout. It's regulation that allows companies to restructure debt and contract obligations, which I think of as another form of bailout (as do many envious companies in Europe who don't have the equivalent of a Chapter 11 relief process). Without Chapter 11, Delta, Continental, United, and American would no longer be with us. Looks like Chapter 11 is working too.

[Randy4Candy]

Originally Posted by yaddayadda

. TARP was panic mode legislation and the only benefit is "saved" banks, jobs, pensions....blah blah blah....

you might want to check with some whose jobs and pensions weren't "blah blah blah"-ed - maybe you could trade places

Left wind right wing ....same fucking chicken.

maybe you could read the story

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But, there was a bright spot in Obama's State of the Union - he ordered the Dept of Justice to form a task force to finally go after the geniuses who were behind the mortgage bundling fiasco. It should have been done in 2009, but maybe (a big one, too) it will actually get some of the bigger fish who were either behind it or allowed it to grow while knowing better and not be satisfied and only take junior level scapegoats. I, for one, think that the continued acceptance the fraud and deception as being "just business" is the major contributor to the current discontent. It's a lot like saying that an armed robbery wasn't that big of a deal since the victims were only wounded and not killed. We'll see, but the economic/political ADHDers will have ample opportunities to fall to the floor, writhing while the process plays out

In the mean time, why don't you guys who think the bailouts were bad and didn't work lead the charge to refund the repayments by GM, Chrysler and the TARPed entities.