Why Ron Paul Is Wrong.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

thats the WTF that we all know and detest

LOL

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

How many lives per barrel of oil is acceptable? Why are we letting the oil companies dictate foreign policy? It's not like we get the oil for free when we send our soldiers to die for it, the oil companies get the oil, at the expense of American lives and tax money, and then SELL the oil to us.

It may be sloganeering, but I stand by it. NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!!

hard to argue with zealotry

your position can be held about anything in the whole world. no blood for liberty!

[CuteOldGuy]

If I had meant no blood for liberty, I would have said that. Liberty is a concept, oil is a product. There is a huge difference. We have all the oil we will need for a hundred years on American soil. Well, under it. There is no need to go die for oil. It is ONLY for oil company profits that we go die.

And consider this. In 1900, there were no airplanes, electricity was new, no radio, no TV, and what few automobiles there were ran on gasoline. In 2012, we have nano processors, we went to the moon over 40 years ago, we can hit a comet with a probe while it is moving at thousands of miles away, we have seen pictures from the surface of Mars, nearly everyone has a personal communication device with more computing power than Apollo 11. And what do automobiles run on? GASOLINE! It's insane we are still dependent on oil with all the progress made in other areas. But, the oil companies are big donors. Wonder if there is a connection?

So then you ask, should I send my son to war so you can have $3.00 per gallon gasoline? Is the life of my son worth a nickel of oil company profits? HELL NO!

And look at the laws being passed. We are easily giving up liberty without a drop of blood being shed. Consider this quote from Thomas Jefferson. We have not been fertilizing the tree of liberty, and it is dying.

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

I would not want my son to die in any cause, but the cause of freedom is an honorable one. The cause of oil company profiteering is not.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

If I had meant no blood for liberty, I would have said that. Liberty is a concept, oil is a product. There is a huge difference. We have all the oil we will need for a hundred years on American soil. Well, under it. There is no need to go die for oil. It is ONLY for oil company profits that we go die.

And consider this. In 1900, there were no airplanes, electricity was new, no radio, no TV, and what few automobiles there were ran on gasoline. In 2012, we have nano processors, we went to the moon over 40 years ago, we can hit a comet with a probe while it is moving at thousands of miles away, we have seen pictures from the surface of Mars, nearly everyone has a personal communication device with more computing power than Apollo 11. And what do automobiles run on? GASOLINE! It's insane we are still dependent on oil with all the progress made in other areas. But, the oil companies are big donors. Wonder if there is a connection?

So then you ask, should I send my son to war so you can have $3.00 per gallon gasoline? Is the life of my son worth a nickel of oil company profits? HELL NO!

And look at the laws being passed. We are easily giving up liberty without a drop of blood being shed. Consider this quote from Thomas Jefferson. We have not been fertilizing the tree of liberty, and it is dying.

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

I would not want my son to die in any cause, but the cause of freedom is an honorable one. The cause of oil company profiteering is not.

how far and how many different "products" will you let be taken from you till liberty is gone? till the life as we know it is forever gone.

its not oil ..its liberty
its freedom

[CuteOldGuy]

oil = liberty. Now that is sad. No wonder we are in trouble we are in. You have bought into the lie the media extols. If it were truly about oil, we would be drilling here, in the US. But it is not. It is about oil company profits. How can another country take from us what we have plenty of? No, we send soldiers to die so oil companies can make bigger profits. That is not an acceptable sacrifice.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

oil = liberty. Now that is sad. No wonder we are in trouble we are in. You have bought into the lie the media extols. If it were truly about oil, we would be drilling here, in the US. But it is not. It is about oil company profits. How can another country take from us what we have plenty of? No, we send soldiers to die so oil companies can make bigger profits. That is not an acceptable sacrifice.

arrrrrrrrrrrggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CuteOldGuy]

Can't handle the truth, eh?

[WTF]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

oil = liberty. Now that is sad. No wonder we are in trouble we are in. You have bought into the lie the media extols. If it were truly about oil, we would be drilling here, in the US. But it is not. It is about oil company profits. How can another country take from us what we have plenty of? No, we send soldiers to die so oil companies can make bigger profits. That is not an acceptable sacrifice.

Don't forget about the Defense Industry. Plenty of profits there!

[wellendowed1911]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

When will you realize that the U.S. government is responsible for looking out for the interests of U.S. citizens first and foremost?

IB so my point is does that make it right? Every country has to look out for the right of it's people too- this is where Paul is right- we should mind our fucking busness. So just because a country is in a strategic location(militarily) and that country has a ruthless dictator we should not do anything because we don't want to lose that strategic position- how fucking insane is that I.B??? we supported Saddam yeah he was once our ally even when he gassed his own people, but as soon as he no longer cooperates with us he's the devil in the flesh?????

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

IB so my point is does that make it right? Every country has to look out for the right of it's people too- this is where Paul is right- we should mind our fucking busness. So just because a country is in a strategic location(militarily) and that country has a ruthless dictator we should not do anything because we don't want to lose that strategic position- how fucking insane is that I.B??? we supported Saddam yeah he was once our ally even when he gassed his own people, but as soon as he no longer cooperates with us he's the devil in the flesh?????

And your point is? You are looking through rosy, altruistic glasses and seeing the world as it never was and never will be.

Of course, the U.S. was allied with Saddam against an enemy theocracy in Iran. Likewise, the U.S. was allied with the Mujahideen - including bin Laden - against the U.S.S.R. The U.S. was allied with the Shah of Iran against the U.S.S.R. The U.S. was allied with the U.S.S.R. against Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo. The Christian nations of Great Britain and France were allied with the Islamic Ottomans against the Christian nation of Russia in Crimea in the 1850s. The 'most Christian king of France' allied with the Islamic Ottomans against the Holy Roman Emperor in the sixteenth century; thus, putting aside the fact that the Christian nations of Europe fought against the Ottomans throughout the Crusades. King Philip and Alexander the Great conquered the Greeks, and then the Greeks allied with Alexander to conquer Persia and into India (334 - 323 BCE). Twenty-five hundred years ago, in ancient Greece, the Greeks united to defeat the Persians at Salamis and Plataea. Subsequently, angling for power, some ancient Greek city-states allied with Persia against other Greek city-states. And so it goes. It's Machiavellian. It's Real Politik, and that's the nature of politics in a human world.

BTW, the Shah was never as ruthless as Stalin and his cohort, Khrushchev. In the real world, one must make real choices. There's no place for arm-chair generals who post-fact kibitz.

[CuteOldGuy]

Yes, and let's look at where all those strategic alliances have gotten us. Trillions in debt, and not an ounce more secure. Wouldn't it be fun, just once, to live in country that actually stood up for its values and principles on the world stage? Instead, we sell our security to whatever tinhorn dictator who has something we want, or is in a strategic location.

Our liberty is almost gone because of our foreign policy over the last 60 years. Has it been worth it? Fuck no! These "enemies" are dreamed up and funded for the express purpose of lining the pockets of defense contractors, oil companies, and Wall Street banks.

One thing we can be sure of. No one is going to attack us. We owe them too DAMN MUCH MONEY!

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Yes, and let's look at where all those strategic alliances have gotten us. Trillions in debt, and not an ounce more secure. Wouldn't it be fun, just once, to live in country that actually stood up for its values and principles on the world stage? Instead, we sell our security to whatever tinhorn dictator who has something we want, or is in a strategic location.

Our liberty is almost gone because of our foreign policy over the last 60 years. Has it been worth it? Fuck no! These "enemies" are dreamed up and funded for the express purpose of lining the pockets of defense contractors, oil companies, and Wall Street banks.

One thing we can be sure of. No one is going to attack us. We owe them too DAMN MUCH MONEY!

Those, and other unmentioned strategic alliances, allowed the U.S. to "get" from 1776 to 2012.

[CuteOldGuy]

LOL! They didn't. But be that as it may, your points are well taken, but not convincing to me. I doubt I'll be able to convince you. So let's just get drunk together, that's the only way we'll resolve anything!

[CuteOldGuy]

But I might add, and I'm talking core principles now, not technology, the USA of 1776, or 1795, bears little resemblance to the USA of 2012. As a name, we have made it to 2012, but as an experiment in freedom, we have fallen way short. We have met the enemy, and he is us.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

LOL! They didn't. But be that as it may, your points are well taken, but not convincing to me. I doubt I'll be able to convince you. So let's just get drunk together, that's the only way we'll resolve anything!

Okay. We'll toast to that despot Napoleon who connived to cheat and bankrupt the U.S. when he sold Kansas (along with a couple of other places) to Jefferson.