What is the definition of "POOR" in America?

[Doove]

I don't think an empirical definition is really all that important. Clearly, one would include some while excluding others that in both cases didn't deserve it.

Here's what i think:

Not everyone has the capacity to obtain a Harvard MBA. And so it follows that not everyone has the capacity to hold even a $40,000/yr job. And so it follows that not everyone has the capacity to hold even a $20,000/yr job. You own a business, right Jonballs? Then you as well as anyone should know that i could bring 10 people to you tomorrow, 10 people who would show up every day, dutifully limit their breaks to 15 minutes, 30 minutes for lunch, give 100% in their efforts to do everything you ask them to do, that you still wouldn't hire for even some of the simplest tasks - simply because you'd have to hold their hand nearly the entire day. At the very least, you wouldn't pay them any more than the minimum wage. So the argument that people need to lift themselves up by their bootstraps only goes so far with me.

I also think (rather, i know) that millions of people have given their lives, their limbs, and even their sanity so i could have the life i have. What kind of soulless human carcass would i have to be to go on a hooker board and whine about having to give some tax dollars so someone else can have a better life? Especially when that "better life" is still only barely manageable. Especially when there is not one person in here who can claim their tax burden prevents them from having a pretty god-damned good life themselves. And certainly not the extent of their tax burden which goes towards helping poor people. I mean, really.

"Woe is me, i'm taxed and oppressed, blah blah blah....". You want "oppressed"? Try living in a system that determines you'll never make barely more than minimum wage. Try coming back from a war and living with PTSD. Or try giving your life for someone else, then talk to me about being "oppressed".

Some people in here, frankly, disgust me.

[Can I Play Too???]

Everything is relative, I suppose. Did Einstein say that? No, seriously, I think that people are upset with the sheer misuse of govt funds and power. For example, $9 billion + the recent $6 billion of unaccounted funds for Iraq, TARP, paying for mistresses hidden babies (Edwards), and so on.

[JONBALLS]

Originally Posted by Doove

I don't think an empirical definition is really all that important. Clearly, one would include some while excluding others that in both cases didn't deserve it.

Here's what i think:

Not everyone has the capacity to obtain a Harvard MBA. And so it follows that not everyone has the capacity to hold even a $40,000/yr job. And so it follows that not everyone has the capacity to hold even a $20,000/yr job. You own a business, right Jonballs? Then you as well as anyone should know that i could bring 10 people to you tomorrow, 10 people who would show up every day, dutifully limit their breaks to 15 minutes, 30 minutes for lunch, give 100% in their efforts to do everything you ask them to do, that you still wouldn't hire for even some of the simplest tasks .

I have a high school education .Its not about the emotion as the MATH..I would love to expand, but thats dependant on the market and the services I offer. Just because you become a "business" doesnt mean that the phone just automaticly rings and the customers show up on the doorstep.Im blessed to have an accountant that knows business math, and more importantly, all the costs associated when figuring in the taxes and regulation and the ever changing circumstances that if I didnt stay on top of would end me .I dont appreciate you stereotyping me into assuming the wage I would pay someone, but its telling.Im not the government, I cant print money and borrow my way to prosperity and would be an idiot and dangerously abusive to any employee that had me doing that.I actually have to pay the bills and the money has to be completely generated by me. I think thats the overall point from which the "whining" comes. The governments policies are made by people who at the end of the day have a seeming endless stream of money from which to write checks.if these people actually had to write the checks out of their own accounts, it would be a diffrent story.The first thing I think and worry about when considering hiring someone is now Im responsible for this persons livelyhood 24/7..you think all business people are looking to take advantage of people and that is horribly misunderstood. If you lay awake at night worrying about how your going to make your ends meet, try doing that plus all the others that are counting on you for theirs too.

[JONBALLS]

Originally Posted by Doove

Try living in a system that determines you'll never make barely more than minimum wage. .

IDK,Had it better working for someone, could leave work at the door after my 8 and go have fun.Drove home in their vehicle and didnt have to pay for gas or maint for that privledge,shit, they just gave me a gas card and it was a never ending full tank!!LOL!!.How much did that add to my income when you figure gas, maintenance and insurance,? at least was worth $150. per wk on top of my pay.Doctors /hospitalization was 80% covered. They also supplied me with unforms, so didnt wear out my own clothes. they were aware I was doing alittle work on the side and turned their head alittle.Would let me buy tools with their business discount at the supplier and would let me pay alittle out of my check each wk with no intrest.Boss would take me and a few others to breakfast at least 3x per mo.we donated time and labor to habitat for humanities house, albeit begrudgingly at the time.Looking back, this was very generous of them and it came at great personal sacrifice to their lives to provide this because business owners NEVER leave the job, its 24/7 /365 worry, dont believe it? just ask the providers.If I tally the risks and benefits, the amount of investment and time spent in my situation, I am hovering around minimum wage at times and then others its better, but its inconsistant, feast or famine in my industry so if you average it out over 20 yrs I sadly have been chasing my tail if your only looking at it from a money perspective.. In the end, the freedom has been more important than money otherwise I would be back as an hourly employee. The USA system is the best in the world and does not hold anyone back, it has propped up the whole world though, so if this system collapses things are really gonna get intresting and me thinks thats where all the "whining" comes from.Not so much that the whiners are solely concerned about their personal situation, but maybe its the whole picture?

[Doove]

Originally Posted by JONBALLS

I dont appreciate you stereotyping me into assuming the wage I would pay someone, but its telling.

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting you (or any other business) are/is cheap. I was only suggesting that some, many, even a lot of people are limited in their capabilities and are therefore not worth much in our economic system. They could live up to, or even somewhat exceed their potential, and still be limited to minimum wage jobs.

And while i'm on my soapbox, there is not one person in here, not one single person, who doesn't benefit financially off the fact that there are people making minimum wage. Not one.

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by Doove

...I also think (rather, i know) that millions of people have given their lives, their limbs, and even their sanity so i could have the life i have. What kind of soulless human carcass would i have to be to go on a hooker board and whine about having to give some tax dollars so someone else can have a better life? Especially when that "better life" is still only barely manageable. Especially when there is not one person in here who can claim their tax burden prevents them from having a pretty god-damned good life themselves. And certainly not the extent of their tax burden which goes towards helping poor people. I mean, really.

"Woe is me, i'm taxed and oppressed, blah blah blah....". You want "oppressed"? Try living in a system that determines you'll never make barely more than minimum wage. Try coming back from a war and living with PTSD. Or try giving your life for someone else, then talk to me about being "oppressed".

Some people in here, frankly, disgust me.

Your admiration of the American fighting person would be inspiring if I believed you truly appreciated the sacrifices those of us who have served. Your disdain for the people who still believe in the Oath of Enlistment and the fidelity we show towards the US Constitution is truly sickening. See my signature line? I know you think I'm a fraud, but you neither inspire nor educate. IMHO, you do not deserve the freedom's we who served offer. I truly wish that people like you, who would rather see a socialist society, would pack your bags and use the freedom you have to freely leave.

[JONBALLS]

Originally Posted by Doove

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting you (or any other business) are/is cheap. I was only suggesting that some, many, even a lot of people are limited in their capabilities and are therefore not worth much in our economic system. They could live up to, or even somewhat exceed their potential, and still be limited to minimum wage jobs.

And while i'm on my soapbox, there is not one person in here, not one single person, who doesn't benefit financially off the fact that there are people making minimum wage. Not one.

well, the big misunderstanding is having me start a thread in a "DIAMONDS AND TUXEDO" area, cause, Im more like a "MOOD RING AND TEE SHIRT" kinda guy, so I do apologize for that, I probably need to be more in the sandbox!!LOL!!I read again and see your point, but, I also have learned due in large extent to you that I shouldnt be so much on the defensive. Thats sometimes hard with you because you have a unique style that makes any debate a true challenge for me and I have always maintain that I appreciate that.Lets face it, the problems are monumental and I feel alot of the divided citizens is by design and has been fostered through polititians. But anyways, we can debate over those issues continually and at the end of the day I pick up alittle more wisdom about myself that can help me if I follow it.. As always DOOVE, appreciate you and your views were not going to change much bitching at each other, but throughout the bitching, i squint my eyes and try not to be short sighted and tend to pick up valuable things that have absolutely nothing to do with the bitching, if that makes any sense..and when everyone here weighs in with their opinion and expresses it in their unique style, thats entertainment, and there are some really impressive writings that come out of all the bitching..

[Doove]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

I know you think I'm a fraud,

Well, i think Marshall's a fraud, and i think you're Marshall....ergo....

but you neither inspire nor educate.

I'm not here to educate or inspire. I'm here to make people like you say:

IMHO, you do not deserve the freedom's we who served offer.

Mission Accomplished!

[John Bull]

Alright boys! Let's settle down. You're getting a bit rowdy and you know...I don't like rowdy.

[Marcus Aurelius]

(IMHO, you do not deserve the freedom's we who served offer. )
I hope that he really doesn't mean that but he has the right.

At the airport the other day the line was long at check in/baggage check.
A business man started a ruckus with his booming voice. Talking to the airline on his cell phone while telling off the agent at the same time. We were all delayed....we were all going through the same things. But he was in god mode. it was disgusting.

I believe we suffer a bit from a lack of clarity. Understanding perhaps.

[TexTushHog]

Like everything, it depends on the context.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Doove.

For now we have to have ditch diggers. We have to have janitors.
Like you I also believe that we should take care of those that can't help themselves.
Not everyone can pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
If some want to leave them behind then I will help them.
What ever it takes...... What ever. I do. I have.

[JONBALLS]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

he was in god mode. it was disgusting.

could you possibly elaborate? what religion did this gentleman represent to you? please define "GOD MODE" and which "GOD MODE" was he in?I hate when your in line at the store and someone is lurking waaaaaaaaaayyyy too close for comfort behind you.I mean too the point of actually being able to smell that person, and no, its hardly ever some hot lady, umm....well.......... ok, its.... NEVER!!!!!.. been a HOT LADY.And your jist standing there feeling really really POOR. For one, I made this POOR GD choice to come here to begin with, now I have to stand in line with this inconsiderate moron behind me that has no concept of the unwritten rule of PERSONAL SPACE!!!SURE, lean on the person in front of you and the cashiers will maybe run the lottery tickets faster??!! YOU DUMB FN IDIOT!!! so now I have to make the decision of causing my own ruckus by turning and shoving the asshole backwards so that maybe hell get the hint I dont appreciate feeling and smelling disgusting breath on the back of my neck, as the JERKOFF shouts nonsense into his cell phone, just because I ran outta milk and made the POOR descision to end up at a convenience store waiting in a line of 20 people.So, all in all, I get it, just never experienced "GOD MODE" as you described and maybe have been misinterpreting my experiences?Ohh yah....how bout when you become really , REALLY!! POOOR!!.. when the bastard TRIPLES DOWN by apon ending his cell call immediately starts whistling??

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by Doove

Well, i think Marshall's a fraud, and i think you're Marshall....ergo......

Put your money where your mouth is, Doove. I'll bet you access to this forum you are wrong. I think you are a just an instigater though and won't take the bet...

[JONBALLS]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

I think you are a just an instigater ..

Travelor, you are correct with this statement...but have to admit , he does spark alot of great posts from some really intelligent folks.His motivations are transparent .In a debate you may have a real convincing arguement and be correct all day long but the wrong tone in expressing those ideals will have you loosing your audience. Ask me how I know!!LOL!!That would be his technique.I do enjoy reading his posts , especially when Im in the process of getting a "tune up"..sit back and enjoy.