What is a Conservative? What is a Liberal?

[Kshunter]

I'm constantly amused by the "Cult of Intellectualism" of liberals, particularly since the decisions they make are anything but intellectual in nature. Most liberalism is driven by emotion, not by thought. Example - how did the current President, easily the most liberal ever, get elected? Well, here were the voting motivators:

1. Hope and Change.
2. He's a black guy.
3. He's not Bush.
4. We think he's really smart.

That's pretty much it. Nowhere did libs even begin to ask any of the hard questions surrounding Obama and his policies. Precious few Dems had any idea of his actual policy and voting background.

Conservatism means asking the hard questions, and sometimes making the hard statements - things people don't want to hear. Asking those questions is an INTELLECTUAL exercise. Example, from a real world dialogue with a friend;

Friend: "Nobody should have to go bankrupt from health issues." (an EMOTIONAL statement)

Me: "Great. Who pays and how do we do it?" (an INTELLECTUAL question)

Friend: "Dunno."

Ultimately Obamacare can be summed up best by the "Dunno."

[catnipdipper]

Ok you intellectual in.dividualist giants. How come 45% of you registered Republicans believe that Obama was born in a foreign country. Oh yeah I sure want you folks making decisions for me! Buncha Brownbacks and Santorums.

[Guest052813-01]

Originally Posted by catnipdipper

Ok you intellectual in.dividualist giants. How come 45% of you registered Republicans believe that Obama was born in a foreign country. Oh yeah I sure want you folks making decisions for me! Buncha Brownbacks and Santorums.

I thought you were leaving?

[catnipdipper]

You wish!

Then you could spew your hate and weirdness without someone calling bullshit on you. Wackanasshole.

Shame on you!

[deacon]

why wouldnt we think he wasnt born here? he can clear this up real easy.

[dirty dog]

Originally Posted by Kshunter

I'm constantly amused by the "Cult of Intellectualism" of liberals, particularly since the decisions they make are anything but intellectual in nature. Most liberalism is driven by emotion, not by thought. Example - how did the current President, easily the most liberal ever, get elected? Well, here were the voting motivators:

1. Hope and Change.
2. He's a black guy.
3. He's not Bush.
4. We think he's really smart.

That's pretty much it. Nowhere did libs even begin to ask any of the hard questions surrounding Obama and his policies. Precious few Dems had any idea of his actual policy and voting background.

Conservatism means asking the hard questions, and sometimes making the hard statements - things people don't want to hear. Asking those questions is an INTELLECTUAL exercise. Example, from a real world dialogue with a friend;

Friend: "Nobody should have to go bankrupt from health issues." (an EMOTIONAL statement)

Me: "Great. Who pays and how do we do it?" (an INTELLECTUAL question)

Friend: "Dunno."

Ultimately Obamacare can be summed up best by the "Dunno."

Sounds like a lot of opinion and little fact, you far right wing conservatives are no better than far left wing liberals, married to an idiology quoted to you buy the sumpreme commanders of your parties I.E. the head of the DNC and GOP not with the goal of bettering the country, rather the goal is to get more elected just like you regardless of the true effect on the country.

[dirty dog]

Originally Posted by deacon

why wouldnt we think he wasnt born here? he can clear this up real easy.

Did you ask to see GW's birth certificate, doesn't he have the same responsibity to provide one, or do you just assume he had one because he is republican and white? With all the things you could talk about, most of your zealots tend to cling to this, in my opinion and of course it is only an opinion much like the stuff you guys spew, but 2 + years in office and you arnt ready to put this to bed, its like you expect some magic smoking gun is going to appear. I would do just what he's doing because it keeps a large group of the GOP chasing a fart. And again dont mistake this as support for Obama, but look at it as someone willing to vote for the GOP but left wondering when they are going to do something other than political ploys like voting to overturn Obama care in the house knowing full well nothing was going to change. I waiting for them to tell me what they are going to do and show me that their doing it, instead of telling me what Obama is not doing.

[catnipdipper]

Even the conservative and very activist judges on the Supreme Court would not honor the AG of Virginia's request for fast tracking.

Lots of folks voted out of anger and were cheerled on by sound bites about taking the country back, overturning health care, cutting the deficit and gee now some people are starting to think maybe we were too hasty and rash in our voting.

When the Tea Bag is used up and is making weak tea it gets thrown out. Sooner or later people turn the sound down when it annoys you. Sooner or later you realize or remember maybe the 1950's weren't so hot and you don't wanna go back to poodle skirts and bobby sox.

If you are not vigilant about who the people are seeking power and control, at all levels, then you are going to get people you might regret and I think that is what is happening now as the right wing shows itself more and more. Scary folks and more so to the Republicans as they are an asset to the Democrats.

[Kshunter]

Originally Posted by catnipdipper

Ok you intellectual in.dividualist giants. How come 45% of you registered Republicans believe that Obama was born in a foreign country. Oh yeah I sure want you folks making decisions for me! Buncha Brownbacks and Santorums.

Well, first of all, the point behind conservatism is NOT for us to be making decisions for you; it's for you to make them for yourself. Did I use too many big words for you?

Now, as far as the Obama birth question: The simple answer is this. There is one document that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was born in Hawaii. It's the long-form birth certificate which is triple-signed and stamped with the Hawaiian seal. The only person who has the power to procure this document and release it to the public is Barack Obama. He has never done so. Why not? Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest answer (and therefore most likely) is that he can't because it doesn't exist.

All other forms of 'proof' submitted by Obama (family recollections, newspaper announcements, the short-form non signed certificate) basically amount to taking his word for it. I'm open to the idea that he was born in Hawaii; I'd just like to see the proof. Once again, I'm sure this little intellectual exercise went over your head.

[Muffrider]

If conservatives would stop at the point when they get to limiting government and maximizing personal freedoms, I would support them. The problem I have with most conservatives is that they betray their own ideals by combining religious morality with political philosophy. The blurring of religious and political lives began with the Moral Majority and the Christian Right. Before that, churches purposely stayed out of politics because politics has a corrupting influence on the churches when they get in bed with politicians.

That leads to the same governmental meddling that liberals are accused of promoting, but in different ways, like dictating who can and can't marry, and passing laws to punish the sinners (drugs, prostitution, pornography, homosexuals, etc).

The problem is that power is corrupting. The founding fathers purposely divided governmental power and set up roadblocks to impede any one group from taking power too quickly.

Rather than hoping for a Republican majority, or a Democratic majority, we should be hoping that there's enough division of power between the two that nothing gets done except for the most vital things that we all agree upon.

[catnipdipper]

Thank you Muffrider! Thank you Thank you Thank you!

KS Hunter missed that part and in his own state too. Voter I.D. Abortion restrictions and now perhaps defunding needed advice and support from Planned Parenthood.

Be careful who and what you vote for as like a box of chocolates you just never know.

The state has C Streeters, Phil Klines and Kobachs and guess what they get elected. Wow

[Kshunter]

Originally Posted by Muffrider

If conservatives would stop at the point when they get to limiting government and maximizing personal freedoms, I would support them. The problem I have with most conservatives is that they betray their own ideals by combining religious morality with political philosophy. The blurring of religious and political lives began with the Moral Majority and the Christian Right. Before that, churches purposely stayed out of politics because politics has a corrupting influence on the churches when they get in bed with politicians.

That leads to the same governmental meddling that liberals are accused of promoting, but in different ways, like dictating who can and can't marry, and passing laws to punish the sinners (drugs, prostitution, pornography, homosexuals, etc).

The problem is that power is corrupting. The founding fathers purposely divided governmental power and set up roadblocks to impede any one group from taking power too quickly.

Rather than hoping for a Republican majority, or a Democratic majority, we should be hoping that there's enough division of power between the two that nothing gets done except for the most vital things that we all agree upon.

All laws are based on someone's morality; laws against murder are based on "thou shalt not kill." In terms of your other examples, the question is - are those laws there to 'punish the sinners,' or because there is distinct societal harm? Not attacking you, just having a discussion that could be fun.

Drugs - I would think anyone with intellectual honesty would agree that there is significant harm, both personal and societal, from drug use. (If you disagree, would drug use be a factor in your determination of whether or not to see a provider?) Now, from my perspective, if we had a society that would allow drug users to suffer the consequences of bad decisions on their own, I'd still be in favor of drug legalization. In other words, if I could be convinced that my money would not be taken and spent on alleviating the consequences of others' decisions to do drugs and destroy their lives, I'd be fine with legalization. However, we don't live in that society; hence, I still think we're better off with drugs being illegal. Even in California there are instances of medical marijuana providers whacking each other, so legalization is no immunization against drug violence.

Prostitution - well, my stance here should be fairly obvious. As George Carlin says, "Selling is legal, fucking is legal, why isn't selling fucking legal?" That said, again, there are societal harms that can come our way. Legalization of prostitution would potentially also decriminalize human trafficking, and I think the streetwalker issue is also a societal harm. So my conclusion? Personally I'd prefer VERY CAREFUL AND CONTROLLED legalization.

Pornography - At the moment, the only illegal porn is child porn and I don't think anyone has a problem with that. Well, maybe NAMBLA.

Homosexuals - I'm assuming that you're referring to gay marriage. I'm completely on the fence on this issue; I've yet to hear a particularly persuasive argument for or against this that isn't emotionally driven. I have no emotional ties to the issue.

One thing I'd say is this - don't confuse a MAJORITY with a vocal MINORITY. Take any issue you like, and you will be able to round up a very fired-up group FOR and a very fired-up group AGAINST. That doesn't mean that either group defines the body politic.

[Kshunter]

Voter I.D. - good idea. The right to vote is perhaps the most critical right we have; why should we not have to prove our citizenship? The truth is that voter fraud happens, and happens here - remember the busloads of Somali immigrants that swung a city election in KCMO a couple of years ago?

Abortion restrictions - not my most important issue, but the restrictions allow abortion on demand during the first 21 weeks of pregnancy. Is it your argument that this isn't enough, and that abortion should be legal up until birth?

and now perhaps defunding needed advice and support from Planned Parenthood. - completely OK with me. I have no idea why we fund them. PP is a $1.2 Billion organization of the type that you lefties would hate if it were a productive company; why in the world should half a billion dollars of our money go to them? I would say the same about pretty much any social/NPO group.

[Cheaper2buyit]

I just dont know what to say its just shocking the way some of you think. I mean some of you think your so pure but you pay for blowjobs and hangout on a hobby board does your mothers know this about you.

[Kshunter]

Originally Posted by Cheaper2buyit

I just dont know what to say its just shocking the way some of you think. I mean some of you think your so pure but you pay for blowjobs and hangout on a hobby board does your mothers know this about you.

So in other words, you have no intelligent thoughts to contribute.