Volt

[royamcr]

I don't think any battery powered vehicle is viable until solar energy matures enough to charge the cars, and continue to charge them while driving, and the cars battery will need to power the car up to 400 miles. Then we need to have a charging station every 200 miles on every major roadway in the US. Maybe then I would think about it more than just a city car to drive to the store and back or to and from work.

[john_galt]

There are some good fuel efficient cars out there like the Ford Fiesta. No, this is not your father's Fiesta. This one looks good for a small car and it gets about 55 miles a gallon on diesel. It is only available overseas because EPA laws prevent the importation of cars that burn diesel. Lancia makes a pretty good looking and performing little car as well but you know our government owned motors don't want foreign competition.

[CuteOldGuy]

I would mention that the internal combustion engine is a 19th century technology, and that newer, more efficient engines and fuels should be commonplace after 100+ years. But if I mentioned that, someone would think that I believed the oil companies and automobile companies were stifling development of technologies that might put them out of business. And that those same companies buy politicians to make sure newer, more efficient technologies are kept from the public.

I mean, that's what people would think if I mentioned that. So I won't. I don't believe that stuff either. Big Business and Big Government conspiring together to stay Big? LOL! Who would believe that! They serve us, of course.

[john_galt]

So the internal combustion engine goes back to Daimler and the steam turbine goes back hundreds of years but that is the heart of a nuclear power plant; a steam turbine.

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

I think LA did a pretty good job of explaining, but then I did pass high school math. The Volt is actually a car designed by the government.Wrong. The GM Volt Concept was completed and on display in 2007. The production car is a cutting edge vehicle and took a while to hit showrooms. You'd need a functioning time machine for your "gub'ment car" conspiracy to work. so it underperforms and is overpriced. Wrong. The Volt performs well at what it was designed to do. Just like GM's top of the line Corvette performs well at what it was designed to do. It is not overpriced, just expensive. You get what you pay for. The Focus was produced by a company that did not need government investment, and is priced fairly, and performs as advertised.
Sadly, it will always be a Ford Focus. Exceptionally mediocre.
Hmmm . . . we might be on to something here.

Longer, explain how the Volt is better. It isn't a Ford. Case closed!Now THAT'S entertainment!

Are you looking for a cost efficient car?...a fuel efficient car?...a car that doesn't pollute the air as much?...a car that pollutes the Earth less?...a car that's recyclable?...or a pure electric vehicle with a backup plan?

Based just on cost efficiency the Volt isn't spectacular. But where drivers commute a short distance and live near hydroelectric power plants...the Volt is fanfuckingtastic. Las Vegas, Tennessee, etc...

IMO, buyers aren't rational. They'll buy whatever they think is neat and has a high status. In the near future, conveniences like hybrid cars that heat and cool themselves automatically and instantly will win over buyers...and they'll never go back. Plus people will love the silence. A hybrid truck with twice the maximum torque at 1000 RPM and a built in inboard generator sounds good, huh?

One of the key advantages of a Volt-like hybrid is that it solves the transmission problem. The engine no longer has to rev to 7000 RPM, vary load, make maximum torque, and pass emissions all at the same time. I just needs to rev to a moderate RPM under a steady load and stay there.

Will Volt 2.0 be a FlexFuel car? Will it use a micro turbine ala Jaguar's concept? Will it use another type of omnivore engine like Ricardo's or Lotus's? How about an OPOC?

Cars like the crappy Focus will go on diets as gas prices increase. They'll also grow tails. No shit. Tails. Teardrop shaped boat tails are already sneaking their way onto car bodies. You can see it on cars like certain Mercedes models where the rear fenders taper to a slightly narrower rear bumper.

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by vitokc

The cost to the consumer makes this a bad investment financially. In this free market each consumer gets to decide that for themselves.There are many larger cars now getting 30+ miles to the gallon. Why ride a cramped car with limited features to save the earth when you can be comfortable and fuel efficient in a car you really want?...uhhhh...TO SAVE THE EARTH MAYBE?!?!? Not everyone is a selfish prick. I'm not saying that you are, but that would be their reason to buy a Volt. Gas and diesel powered vehicles run cleaner than ever with emission laws in place. They work even better when lightened to run at a light, steady load.Don't forget, you still need to plug in the Volt using electricity provided by the coal burning power plants. No, you don't. It runs on gasoline, and not all electrical power in the U.S. is coal powered. Some is hydro, some nuclear. Nuclear powered Volt FTW!The rail cars filled with coal won't go away in our lifetime. It depends on how long you live. Why transport coal from Wyoming when you can just transport the electricity? I doubt Barry will give up his limo for a Volt.GM built that car, too. I don't see a problem building a bulletproof Cadillac limo hybrid. Engine is damaged it runs on batteries;batteries are damaged it runs on the engine. Under floor batteries would make good shielding.

You guys just remember to say,"I suck a bag of dicks!" when you buy your first hybrid vehicle.

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by royamcr

I don't think any battery powered vehicle is viable until solar energy matures enough to charge the cars, and continue to charge them while driving, and the cars battery will need to power the car up to 400 miles. Then we need to have a charging station every 200 miles on every major roadway in the US. Maybe then I would think about it more than just a city car to drive to the store and back or to and from work.

Just no. Europeans have already begun to experiment with battery packs that are changed by robots in less than a minute. It's like how you change batteries in your TV remote control. Not rocket science.

[john_galt]

Longer, you're smart enough to know that hundreds of different designs of cars are produced every decade. Most of them never see the showroom, some never even become prototypes. The Volt was, and is, a poor concept that would not have been put into production except for pressure from the government. Otherwise explain the subsidy from Uncle Sam? A successful design does not need help.
I do agree with the replaceable battery pack idea, that is the only way to make it viable now but imagine the engineering head aches involved. All batteries would have to have a universal set up and there has to be some way for the owner to do self service. That means there has to be a way for the car to be EXACTLY positioned for the change out and that means moving parts. That means tremendous liability issues for the companies building the apparatus. Even at home you could have a transformer like power transmission device built into the floor of your garage that only have to park your car over.
A little history lesson; one of the first road races was cross country from New York to San Fransisco in 1904. There were no highways, no real roads, and no gas stations along the route except in major cities. They had to have support teams to carry gasoline, tires, parts, and mechanics. The support that we take for granted didn't exist. That race inspired the dream of Americans to own and drive their own car. Henry ford stepped in with an affordable car built in mass quantities and GMAC made it possible for people to buy them. It didn't take much government support.

[CuteOldGuy]

Sadly, Longer, glittering generalities do not refute the facts. You've done it again. Straw man up, straw man down.

[lacrew_2000]

I always enjoy the departure from reality. The Volt is an incredibly unpopular failure, having sold around 1,000 units so far…yet it is obviously superior to the Focus (one of the hottest selling cars right now btw).

I’m going to stand by my original opinion: The statement that the Volt will be a ‘HOT ITEM’ later this year will prove to be fantastically incorrect.

btw – I am starting to see TV commercials for the Volt…something I see all the time for ‘HOT ITEMS’ . As an example of GM’s penchant for over-promising, the ad states you will only spend $1.50 per day on electricity. Lets look at the markets where the Volt is being sold, and what $1.50 will get you:

NY – 19 miles, New Jersey – 21 miles, Connecticut – 18 miles, DC – 26 miles, California – 23 miles, Texas – 31 miles

Using $3.55 a gallon, a Prius would go 21 miles on $1.50 (base MSRP $23,050)

hmmm

Of course, when the gas engine kicks in, $1.50 will only get you 15 mile in the Volt...you'd still get 21 mile out of a Prius all day, every day.

hmmm

Even if the Volt were a good idea, Nissan has a better model, with greater range, and it costs less.

hmmm

Lets look at pollution (assuming for the moment that CO2 should really be considered a pollutant). Gas produces 19.4 lbs/gal - so the Prius produces 8.2 lbs to go 21 miles on $1.50. Coal produces 2.1 lbs per KWH - so the Volt produces 20 lbs to go 21 miles. Whoops! The Prius is 'greener' than a Volt? In fact, a vehicle could have a mileage as bad as 21 mpg and still be greener than a Volt...so if I cared about the planet, I should be driving a Camaro, instead of a Volt.

hmmm

No sane person would buy a Volt.

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Sadly, Longer, glittering generalities do not refute the facts. You've done it again. Straw man up, straw man down.

While some parts of the Volt are cutting edge, the basic powertrain is similar to what's been used in diesel-electric locomotives for 50 years. An ICE turns an alternator, then electric motors turn the wheels. The Volt uses a battery pack as a buffer. If you don't grasp the importance of disconnecting engine load and RPM from road speed then I can't help you.

Here's what a battery pack changer looks like. Cars would just need to use a standard sized battery pack. Or there could be multiple standards just like there are now for starter batteries.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfdYU...e_gdata_player

The Volt exists because it is a response to the Japanese hybrids; Insight, Prius, various Lexii, CR-Z. There are also a few small car companies (Tesla, Fisker) that are trying to attract early adopters to gain market share. And, if I may gloat a bit, FORD is slated to offer an electric Focus.

http://www.ford.com/electric/focuselectric/2012/

Why would Ford be so stupid to offer an electric Focus when they make a perfectly perfect Focus that you guys are gay for?!?!?! Now you can argue apples to apples against yourself, lacrew!

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

I always enjoy the departure from reality. The Volt is an incredibly unpopular failure, having sold around 1,000 units so far…yet it is obviously superior to the Focus (one of the hottest selling cars right now btw).

I’m going to stand by my original opinion: The statement that the Volt will be a ‘HOT ITEM’ later this year will prove to be fantastically incorrect.

btw – I am starting to see TV commercials for the Volt…something I see all the time for ‘HOT ITEMS’ . As an example of GM’s penchant for over-promising, the ad states you will only spend $1.50 per day on electricity. Lets look at the markets where the Volt is being sold, and what $1.50 will get you:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/11...of-93-mpg-but/

37MPG is the minimum if you never plug the car in for a charge. The EPA "combined composite" is 60MPG!

NY – 19 miles, New Jersey – 21 miles, Connecticut – 18 miles, DC – 26 miles, California – 23 miles, Texas – 31 miles

Using $3.55 a gallon, a Prius would go 21 miles on $1.50 (base MSRP $23,050)
Why don't you compare Volt to Prius in the same mode? The Prius gets 51MPG highway on gasoline, but can't go full electric and lags 9MPG behind the 60MPG composite of the Volt.


hmmm

Of course, when the gas engine kicks in, $1.50 will only get you 15 mile in the Volt...you'd still get 21 mile out of a Prius all day, every day.

hmmm

Even if the Volt were a good idea, Nissan has a better model, with greater range, and it costs less.
The Nissan Altima uses Toyota hybrid guts under license.
hmmm

Lets look at pollution (assuming for the moment that CO2 should really be considered a pollutant). Gas produces 19.4 lbs/gal - so the Prius produces 8.2 lbs to go 21 miles on $1.50. Coal produces 2.1 lbs per KWH - so the Volt produces 20 lbs to go 21 miles. Whoops! The Prius is 'greener' than a Volt? In fact, a vehicle could have a mileage as bad as 21 mpg and still be greener than a Volt...so if I cared about the planet, I should be driving a Camaro, instead of a Volt.
Does all electricity come from coal? Are all coal power plants equally efficient? Where did you get your numbers?
hmmm

No sane person would buy a Volt.

Yeah, GM's first plug-in electric car for sale wouldn't be collectable at all if it only sold a few thousand units...hurr durr. Have you seen any EV1s lately? The last one I saw was in a museum getting worth more every day.

[lacrew_2000]

Consumer reports got approximately 30 mpg in gasoline mode. I have a 10 y/0 compact with no special technology that gets 30 mpg.

I have no idea what the collectability of the EV1 has to do with anything...but if it matters, they were a lease fleet, recalled and destroyed by GM...I'm surprised any survive...but what does that matter. GM planned to sell 10,000 Volts this year...and they aren't even on pace to meet half that goal.

You said the Volt would be a 'HOT Item' later this year. Go stock up and sell them at a premium this fall (but I have to warn you, production has outpaced sales 3,200 to 1,200)

....and btw, nice video of a perfectly clean car, with a perfectly clean battery pack, and the station capable of changing UNO battery. A lousy gas station in this country has 200 customers a day...many are much higher, but we'll use the low number, since this battery 'station' would take a huge footprint to even accomodate 200 a day. First, that little robot will have to find a way to sort and stack at least 200 batteries...probably more to make up for charging times. Using 200, though, the 'station' will only need 8,000 amps to charge all of those batteries over-night!!! The transformer would actually be bigger than a Volt, and hold more cooling oil than a small tanker....and of course this doubles the needed supply of batteries...and if a charge only costs a few dollars, the premium could only be a few more dollars...so the robots and battery inventory will be paid off in around a thousand years....and everybody gets to stay in the car, with no chance of going inside to buy a bag of chips.

....all this to use a car with a 25 mile electric range. Wouldn't the average consumer just buy a high efficiency car and skip all the extension cords, charging stations, hydro-electric plants, and robots?

[john_galt]

All energy comes from our Sun originally. It comes to us in the form of oil, wood, solar, wind, or coal. Nuclear is the only exception. Success come to the people who can make it portable and affordable which why the US has been so successful. We were to mine coal and drill for oil. We distilled that oil into gasoline and diesel. We can put them into a plastic can and take them anywhere for our use. You can't do that with electricity. That gallon of gasoline will produce hundreds of watt-hours, more watt-hours than you can store in a battery that you can carry with the same ease. Yesterday Obama was touting a F-22 that was flying on biofuel and said we can do the same with trucks and cars which just proves he doesn't know the difference between jet engines and internal combustion engines. As Longer said the internal combustion engine goes back over a hundred years. Imagine a military of the future under Obama; lacking a beachhead we drop a MBT (main battle tank) behind the front lines of the enemy (of course we dropped in infantry, artillery, and everything else for war) and the tank is either electric or powered by biofuel. Where do we find some way to power up? Okay we drop in an electric generator but what drives that generator? Diesel or jet fuel. So we have to drop large quantities of fuel to run the generator to charge up the tank so it can go fight. Why not just keep the diesel fueled tank in the first place. Diesel we can find more of on the battle field. Same logic can be applied to large trucks and service vehicles. Of course that same logic can be applied to your family car.

[CuteOldGuy]

You are right, Longer. It's not right to compare the Volt to the Focus. I think a more apt comparison would be the Volt and the AMC Gremlin.