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I’ve given plenty of examples of victimless crimes that get prosecuted every day.
I had 4 martinis at Ruth’s Friday night. I was likely tipsy and legally drunk. I made it home safely without harming anyone on the road. No one should have a complaint. Nonetheless, were I pulled over I’d be charged with a DUI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiny
Insightful post, thanks. Particularly the DUI analogy. The difference in my opinion, which is totally unrelated to the law, is that you're much more likely to kill someone when DUI. But no informed, seasoned loan officer in his right mind would have been taken in by Trump's financial statements or property valuations, let alone large banks like Deutsche Bank.
The DUI analogy is a terrible one for more reasons than that. Not all "victimless crimes" are the same. Fraud is a very "elastic" concept; that's why prosecutors like it so much. (By elastic I mean hard to define or pin down.) DUI is easy to define. Either you blow above 0.08% or you don't.
Every state in the US has strict DUI laws on the books. They've had them for decades. Local magistrates try to enforce them, otherwise MADD oppose them at election time. Each year, there are around 1 million DUI arrests in the US.
As I understand it, the statute under which Trump is being prosecuted for fraud is new, unique and has never before been used (or abused) in this outrageously partisan manner.
Re-read Andrew McCarthy's column in my post #2. As he put it:
"The state has never before sued under §63(12) on a theory of overvalued assets... where no counterparty claims to have been defrauded — the first ever such case just happens to be this one, brought against the Democrats’ archnemesis by an elected Democratic AG who campaigned for office in heavily Democratic New York on a vow to get Trump on... something — anything."
Regardless, I'm glad 1b1 had a good time at Ruth Chris and made it home safely! Were they gin or vodka martinis?
I think there's a link out there from Reuters that say Trump gained $100 million due to the same valuations that both he and his children overly inflated...
Trump... cheated [Deutsche Bank] shareholders out of additional profits that should have been realized...
But yeah the crimers keep on criming....cause no victims...
The "crimers keep on criming"? Seriously, eye?
Please show me that Reuters link. So now we have estimates of the amount Trumpy is said to have defrauded Deutsche Bank ranging from $100 million (Reuters claim) to $168 million (testimony of so-called "expert witness" Michiel McCarty at trial) to $250 million (Letitia James' initial pie-in-the-sky estimate).
Wow, man! Sounds like the estimates are all over the fucking map!
I'll let you in on a little secret here. Banks approve and price these types of loans based on cash flow, not asset values. So even if Deutsche Bank had accepted Trump's (allegedly inflated) values without doing any of its own due diligence on the properties, it wouldn't have made any difference in terms of the loan interest rate. No evidence has been presented at this sham trial to prove otherwise.
I hate to keep repeating points that have already been made, but here's how Andrew McCarthy explained it:
"...there is no evidence that the banks would have charged a higher interest rate if Trump had lowered his valuations. McCarty is entitled to his opinion, but so were the banks, which actually had skin in the game. There is no state-law requirement holding that if an asset is valued at X amount, a bank must charge a set interest rate. These are arms-length transactions. The banks made the loans because (a) Trump was a good customer who had a history of paying up; (b) if a bank had proposed a too-high interest rate, Trump could simply have gone to a different bank that would have welcomed the business; and (c) the banks don’t make money if they don’t lend, and they were happy with the tidy profits they consistently made on Trump loans. Yet, again, when Trump’s lawyers posited these points, Engoron peremptorily declared that he had already decided Trump’s loans were “ill-gotten,” and that McCarty was just “deciding the number.”"
Oh my, it looks like every realtor down there in Palm Beach is laughing at Judge Engoron!
He claims Mar-a-Lago is only worth its tax-assessed value of $18 million. But every realtor in Palm Beach says the property would list at a minimum of $300 million!
Question: Shouldn't we be prosecuting Judge Engoron and Attorney General James for fraud under statute §63(12) for grossly deflating trumpy's property values for political gain?
"Palm Beach real estate agents who specialize in high-end properties scoffed at the idea that the estate could be worth that little, in the unlikely event Trump ever sold.
“Ludicrous,” agent Liza Pulitzer said about the judge citing the county’s tax appraisal as a benchmark. Homes a tenth the size of Mar-a-Lago on tiny inland lots sell for that in the Town of Palm Beach, a wealthy island enclave.
“The entire real estate community felt it was a joke when they saw that figure,” said Pulitzer, who works for the firm Brown Harris Stevens.
“That thing would get snapped up for hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars,” said Rob Thomson, owner of Waterfront Properties and a Mar-a-Lago member. “There is zero chance that it’s going to sell for $40 million or $50 million.”
Pulitzer said the rock-bottom price for Mar-a-Lago would be $300 million. Thomson said at least $600 million. If uber-billionaires got into a bidding war, they said, a sale of a billion dollars or more would be possible."
Oh my, it looks like every realtor down there in Palm Beach is laughing at Judge Engoron!
He claims Mar-a-Lago is only worth its tax-assessed value of $18 million. But every realtor in Palm Beach says the property would list at a minimum of $300 million!
(deleted)
Pulitzer said the rock-bottom price for Mar-a-Lago would be $300 million. Thomson said least $600 million. If uber-billionaires got into a bidding war, they said, a sale of a billion dollars or more would be possible."[/I]
So estimates on the property are all over the place. Not a big deal, but since the court case currently is in NY, the concern isnt what every Tom, Dick n Harry say it's worth. It is likely worth well more than 18 million, no doubt.
BUT
What is concerning is that Trump is saying it's now 1.3-1.5 billion. That's a pretty far stretch for even DJT, and his prolific lying capacity. All the other quotes are in the mid 300-600 million generally speaking, and that is due mostly to zoning and othe restrictions. I can claim that my own property is worth a a gazillion dollars cause I saw a fucking leprechaun running out of a hole and had some shiny coins in his pocket, but that doesn't really mean it is. And that is why there is the GAAP principles that apply.
Are banks required to do due diligence, yes, but they also have to rely on banking and estimates and good faith estimates in general especially on specialty property.
If those are meaningless, why have them at all?
Further, IT's the skewed values from Trump etal, when it comes to filing for tax breaks or values for write offs, when compared to those same values when used as collateral or to boost a bottom line, which shows the overall value of a company. (* you know assets and liabilities). Lies on those documents is bank fraud, and while there may not be a singular victim, it could be the taxes due were based on inaccurate assessments, partially relied on by the RE tax assessor's office, and also the banks who loaned money to the trumps at discounted rates due to a preferential arrangement of keeping some level of deposit, or holding an asset that was over inflated. Those rates can move significantly and while it was agreeable to a bank, the shareholders of the bank would feel differently if they were entitled to a larger repayment than agreed to by fraudulent terms.
Deceptive business practices are not well accepted by DA's, or in general once discovered. Check Kiting is an old version where a bank(s) in general wouldn't be hurt until there was that final situation of musical chairs and trump wasn't sitting and the bank was holding the bag. Should there only be a concern when there is a loss, or should there be a concern when it's discovered that there are laws being broken. Bernie Madoff is similar in that count, where there was no victims, till there was no way to run where Bernie didnt have a chair/ or money to pay back those who requested it.
How long till the Trump train runs off the tracks in general. I've heard and read that there are numerous properties he owns that are distressed. Besides his bug infested beach Lagoon in Palm Beach, there is the equally shitty Doral golf course which is not doing well. Go to trip advisor and see the shit show of reviews. Hell the PGA won't even play on it anymore. What does that tell you?
It's also been estimated that the refinance of that course was done with, again- wait for it, fraudulent fudgy-wudgy numbers, saving Trump millions of dollars in interest. At the fruad trial, "The banking expert calculated that the former president saved a total of $72,908,308 on interest for the Doral Resort."
Oh it's of note that Trump bought it when it was in bancruptcy and it is not an uncommon word to DJT; and of course could end up back there in that situation again, if DJT is forced to pay the fines he may required to cough up.
The reality is that while Trump is scamming the banking world, and insurance world, he's not getting away with it anymore. Banks are now hip to his shit, and I'm betting only a finite segment of banks will lend to him. (remember we get most of our financing from RUSSIA- Eric TrumP) The lenders in the US are going to be looking at him like he's poisonous now, and while that may or may not be, fair, it's how trump has in the past taken out cash for operations. It worked well in a low interest rate economy, but in this one, he's going to be borrowing his own money at 2x the rates. It's just a matter of time till he borrows his way into bankruptcy or forced sales of Real Estate.
There's no way this doesn't end badly for him in general. The Bravado of the Trump clan publicly is amusing, but I'm sure at night Eric, is sucking his thumb and rocking in the fetal position, while Don Jr. is busy shitting himself, while doing his "other favorite hobby".
Was his condo 10,000 or 30,000 square feet? Is square footage a subjective measure? Can one charge rent higher than what the rent control is set for? Can property rental values be estimated at a far higher rate than what the actual rental values are? Even if Mar-a-Lago is wrong, are these two relevant in proving fraud?
That’s why I say that all this silly outrage is an expression of stupidity.
Was his condo 10,000 or 30,000 square feet? Is square footage a subjective measure? Can one charge rent higher than what the rent control is set for? Can property rental values be estimated at a far higher rate than what the actual rental values are? Even if Mar-a-Lago is wrong, are these two relevant in proving fraud?
That’s why I say that all this silly outrage is an expression of stupidity.
it's was 30 bazillion feet! All Gleaming and Gold-plated. Why does that matter. LOL? Rules, Rent Controls etc?? What's that?
Was his condo 10,000 or 30,000 square feet? Is square footage a subjective measure? Can one charge rent higher than what the rent control is set for? Can property rental values be estimated at a far higher rate than what the actual rental values are? Even if Mar-a-Lago is wrong, are these two relevant in proving fraud?
That’s why I say that all this silly outrage is an expression of stupidity.
Please refer to the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, the parts about depriving people of property and equal protection under the law.
Not only is our criminal justice system out of control, incarcerating too many middle aged white businessmen and young black men. But so is the civil system. Yes I'm outraged.
I'm outraged by the ridiculous fines that New York courts have ordered banks to pay through the years.
I'm outraged that the plaintiffs' attorneys and courts bankrupted the only U.S. manufacturer of silicone breast implants.
I'm outraged that no light private aircraft were manufactured in the USA for many years, because the plaintiffs' attorneys and courts were bankrupting the manufacturers.
I'm outraged that medical and insurance costs are pushed way up by greedy plaintiffs' attorneys.
And I'm outraged the New York attorney general is trying to grab $250 million for the state and put Trump companies out of business for victimless crimes. Although admittedly this doesn't outrage me as much as the other items of outrage above.
During the time between Deng Xiaoping and Xi Jinping, more than one observer commented on superior economic growth in China compared to the USA, by saying the USA is run by lawyers and China by engineers. Lawyers like Letitia James. They had a point.
Not to criticize you, you work for the good guys, Exxon and the rest of Corporate America!
"This Doesn't Even Make Sense... This Is Ridiculous!"
Shall we let Mr. Wonderful explain how real-estate lending actually works to all the ignorant, irrational Trump haters out there who don't have a clue?
Mr Wonderful is almost as big as asshole as Trump. He appears on two things, shark tank and FOX. Both are entertainment shows without facts. Even shark tank co-host hate this "Mr wonderful", cause he's a deceptive shill, who would sell his mother for a dollar. Fox will promote anyone who will support 'their boy' Trump,- and manipulate the law suggesting no fraud unless the case is filed by a victim. Once some sense of plausible deniability comes out, Trump supporters and state news Fox TV fall right in line. Despite the excuse / deniability not being based on anything factual and legally defendable. Not just here say that only an injured party can sue. Many government oversight agencies were developed to hold corporations accountable for fraudulent business practices, or deceptive dealings. No different here and Trump is being held accountable
Mr Wonderful is almost as big an asshole as Trump. He appears on two things, shark tank and FOX. Both are entertainment shows without facts. Even shark tank co-hosts hate this "Mr wonderful", cause he's a deceptive shill, who would sell his mother for a dollar. Fox will promote anyone who will support 'their boy' Trump - and manipulate the law suggesting no fraud unless the case is filed by a victim. Once some sense of plausible deniability comes out, Trump supporters and state news Fox TV fall right in line. Despite the excuse/deniability not being based on anything factual and legally defendable. Not just here say (sic) that only an injured party can sue. Many government oversight agencies were developed to hold corporations accountable for fraudulent business practices, or deceptive dealings. No different here and Trump is being held accountable.
When you can’t refute someone who obviously knows more about a subject than you do, it’s time to launch an ad hominem attack, right eye? Call him an asshole, a shill, and a Trump supporter - even though he made it abundantly clear during his appearance on CNN (cough, cough, not on FOX? How do you explain that?) that his comments had nothing to do with politics and were based purely on his decades of experience in commercial real-estate lending. (Btw - how much expertise do you have in that area? About the same as Tish James - zero?)
In case you missed it, he peppered his explanation of the loan process with comments like these:
“Let’s leave out Trump… let’s leave out politics… forget about Trump… I don’t care about the politics…”
That sure doesn’t sound like a trump shill to me.
And when he finally did wade into politics near the end of the video, he blurted out - “I don’t understand why we’re trying to impeach Biden. What a waste of time!”
Is that something a trumpy would say?
Kevin O’Leary is calling this case out for what it is - a crock of shit. The fact that you can only attempt to taint him, falsely and stupidly, as a trump shill tells me you know deep down he’s right, during those rare moments when you manage to suppress your otherwise full-blown TDS. The only people trying to “manipulate the law” are the pathetically corrupt, biased, Democrat vote-seeking DA and judge. They want to criminalize the standard process of applying for a loan, just to “get Trump”.
It’s not just the lack of a victim/injured party here that is concerning. All the legal arguments and common sense line up against the cunt prosecutor. I don’t give a rat’s ass if a borrower tells me his building is worth two nickels or two gazillion. As a lender, I would never RELY on that in making my loan decision!
The trial is deeply disturbing on many, many levels. If a citizen files a frivolous case, a judge will simply throw it out. But what do we do when an elected far-left District Attorney conspires with an elected far-left judge in a deep blue state to file a frivolous, politically-motivated case against the leading Presidential candidate of the opposing party? We’re stuck - we have to cringe and watch the whole absurd spectacle play out, shaking our heads at the gross abuse of our judicial system and the scandalous waste of our tax dollars.
Meanwhile, every person who knows a whit about real estate is tearing their hair out. Kevin O’Leary is merely giving voice to their outrage when he says:
“Every single real estate developer everywhere on earth does this! They ALWAYS talk about their assets being worth a lot, and the bank says no…”
“If you’re a real estate developer, you’re watching this and saying - what is this? This is ridiculous!”
“The bank ALWAYS negotiates with you. Everybody understands how this works …this is a joke!”
