Debt Ceiling

[pxmcc]

So we have this thing called the Debt Ceiling mentioned nowhere in the Constitution which harkens back to a federal statute from 1939. Before the Tea Party, it was a perfunctory thing to raise the debt ceiling as needed because all the presidents and Congresses knew that, whatever the problem was, becoming a deadbeat nation who reneges on its past debts wasn't the answer.

then the Tea Party comes along during the 1st Obama admin and says, "We'll agree to raise the debt limit, but only if you agree to cuts in spending on Democratic priorities like Tatnf-a modern term for welfare. And if you don't give us what we want, we'll refuse to raise the debt ceiling, the U.S. government will be unable to pay its bills-that's called a default-and the next worldwide Great Depression (GDII) will happen. so, basically, give in to our demands or we'll blow the whole thing up. "can you say, 'financial terrorist'?"

Obama actually sat down with John Boehner for some serious negotiations and considered significant concessions from the left-like raising Soc Sec retirement age, etc.-in what was called a grand bargain that would raise the debt limit, move towards a balanced budget, and require concessions from both the far left and the far right. i'm not sure why-maybe too many Tea Partiers were yelling at him to get a better deal-but the Grand Bargain was off. instead we got something called the Sequester, which basically set up a series of automatic cuts to various programs if no mutual agreement on a better option had been
reached. Course, no agreements were forthcoming, so we actually lowered the deficit substantially since the Bush years in those Obama years, but the Sequester was not popular with either wing.

Biden initially said, give me a clean debt bill (no riders or other issues in there) and i'm not going to negotiate. and yet, here he is negotiating with McCarthy, driving us left wingers bonkers lol. so now McCarthy is demanding cuts to social programs and environmental funding to address global warming, or he will pass nothing and the fed will go in to default. (trump is actually rooting for this, which shows that he lacks a 4th grader's understanding of world economics, or he hopes that we get Great Depression II because he'll have a better chance in 2024. he's a sociopath, so the second possibility can't be dismissed as absurd.)

On the far left and also a substantial fraction of academia cites the 14th Amendment as trumping a mere federal statute:
"Fourteenth Amendment, Section 4: The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned."

so McCarthy is calling into question the validity of public debt by saying to our creditors, "Screw you. We're defaulting on what we owe you. if you don't like it, tough nookies." Uncle Sam.

so what Biden would do is just ignore the debt ceiling and keep paying Uncle Sam's bills. personally, i think this is a better option than negotiating with economic terrorists, who are literally ready to "blow the whole thing up" if they don't get their way.

there's another option he could use: mint a one of a kind trillion dollar platinum coin and deposit it at the U.S. Treasury so America can pay its bills. (can you imagine the security detail for that thing?) then he could use the coin to keep paying America's bills. this is a bit unorthodox, but when you're dealing with terrorists, you have to keep your options open. so i'm in favor of this as well if Biden doesn't buy the Constitutional approach. the authority for minting a trillion dollar coin comes from a federal statute. here's the jargon:
"is based on the authority granted by Section 31 U.S.C. § 5112 of the United States Code for the Treasury Department to "mint and issue platinum bullion coins" in any denominations the Secretary of the Treasury may choose."

the far right might see this as all fun and games, but it's nothing of the sort. the game of chicken from 2011 actually caused America's credit rating to go down, forcing the government to pay higher interest rates. and where's that money going to come from? guess what, you and me, the American taxpayers. so this economic terrorism can have some pretty gnarly real world impacts. and if we default, the world will never trust the U.S. dollar again. and at that point, it might not be a bad idea to start learning Mardarin Chinese. the renminbi will become the new global reserve currency.

there are subissues floating around in the background that i haven't brought up for the sake of simplicity, but if those issues show up in the Comments, i'll address them then.

what do you all think about all this Debt Ceiling business?

[500sl]

FJB

[MisterMeat]

FDT

[mynameismudd]

I think our government should cut all the excessive spending and live within their means. Any other business that was 30 trillion in debt would be out of business, and its all the government spending that is driving inflation.

[majorjones]

FTBSWATA

[Michael8219]

Assuming debt ceiling is raised, if we hit 40 trillion in debt by 2028 we’re all screwed anyway. Not sure if you recall 2008 to 2010 but debt was moved to federal reserve “off balance sheet” so debts could be written down, off, or fund bear stearns, WaMu, Merrill lynch purchase etc. they just printed money and supposedly paid the debt back.

In the olden days they reported money supply ($ in circulation). Now they make it up.

14th amendment is flawed: “authorized by law”… assuming this means if a budget or pork barrel legislation was approved, it’s authorized by law. But what if it was stupid in that we don’t have the money or tax revenue to pay it back? Eventually your currency becomes worthless. So is holding the debt hostage perfect? No. But somehow we have to get back to reality but I’m thinking that’s not going to happen.

National debt is the consumption of wealth that has yet to be earned. Just like a huge credit card. For future generations, the wealth which is meant to fund their lives must be spent instead on debt and interest repayment.

We are creating the biggest debt mountain in history which leads to the largest interest payments on earth and doubling of trouble for our kids and grandchildren. Most likely this will cause a debt failure anyway.

Right now, our debt is $74,000 per each citizen (including minors). 42% of the US couldn’t handle a $400 unexpected bill. Check out the debt clock:

http://www.usdebtclock.org

So you either cut spending or raise taxes. If you raise taxes more than 2% you kill the economy. So what’s your solution?

[Chung Tran]

People have been saying this shit since the 1970's. ''The budget is too big'', it's going to bankrupt us soon, our grandchildren will be crushed by debt service, etc. Meanwhile the US economy has never been stronger over any 40 year period. The Dollar is a fiat currency, which is necessary to promote growth. Those finite gold bars don't do much for growing economies.

The Chicken Littles were long ago shown to be wrong.

Is debt service too high? Sure, but it hasn't been until around a year ago. The World is under too much debt, and the Dollar is still King. Is Biden responsible for inflation? He owns a piece of it, but inflation is high around the World. The Federal Reserve is mostly responsible, if you disagree, I don't have enough time to explain it, but you are ignorant.

Can Biden assert the 14th amendment? I don't know, it may be like Trump declassifying items at will, works in theory or his head, but...

The coin thing is odd. Even if they can mint one, does it follow they can spend it at will? I doubt it.

Just raise the fucking ceiling, and fight your battles in a different framework. Go to the Press first, tell them you're a grown up, and will operate as one. Either Biden or McCarthy, the real winner does that first.

[pxmcc]

1063196663]FJB[/QUOTE]
px: i see..
a simple answer to a complex problem. boy, those are the best, when u can get 'em..

[QUOTE=mynameismudd;1063196725]I think our government should cut all the excessive spending and live within their means. Any other business that was 30 trillion in debt would be out of business, and its all the
px: agreed
government spending that is driving inflation.
px: iffy argument, but let me play the devil's advocate to my own position (and in favor of yours): pelosi $ plus supply chain snags=demand pull inflation: too much money chasing too few goods. stipulated.

Originally Posted by majorjones

FTBSWATA

px: where's my damn urban dictionary when i need it? WATA was nowhere to be found in Webster's

Originally Posted by Michael8219

Assuming debt ceiling is raised, if we hit 40 trillion in debt by 2028 we’re all screwed anyway.

px: sorta to pretty much. however, we're not greece, because our debt is denominated in #$greenbacks, not a foreign currency like the euro or the ren. if our creditors got really nasty, we could moneytize the debt by printing 30 trillion greenbacks and handing it to our creditors. "here ya go, 30 T as promised, nomasw get off my back. greece could not print drachmas but had to come up with real money, i.e., euros.
i hear you yelling: " Fool, do you know nothing of currency devaluation and inflation?!!" and the answer is "yes indeed, but ijs we're not exactly like greece. maybe it is our creditors who were the fools not to demand by contract payment in gold bullion or federal assets such as land."
Not iosure if you recall 2008 to 2010 but debt was moved to federal reserve “offing about currency balance sheet” so debts could be written down, off, or fund bear stearns, WaMu, Merrill lynch purchase etc. they just printed money and supposedly paid the debt back.
px: true, but crazy, either all or almost all of th at $ got paid back. i don't think they took a cash position to Wa Mu or Bear Stearns, but they sure did for a million other firms to prevent global econoermic collapse. score 1 for obama. his family at dinner time would describe their day in terms of roses and thorns. after hearing many days of her father's days' thorns, Malia declared: "Dad, you have a thorny job." indeed..

In the olden days they reported money supply ($ in circulation). Now they make it up.
px: yup

14th amendment is flawed: “authorized by law”… assuming this means if a budget or pork barrel legislation was approved, it’s authorized by law. But what if it was stupid in that we don’t have the money or tax revenue to pay it back?
px: tough nookies. don't be an idiot is the lesson learned, not "you're an idiot, so you get a free pass to screw your creditors."Eventually your currency becomes worthless.
px: yes, this can happen. in italy it takes several thousand lire to buy a pizza.
So is holding the debt hostage perfect? No. But somehow we have to get back to reality
agreedbut I’m thinking that’s not going to happen.it does look grim. where's jfk when you need him?

National debt is the consumption of wealth that has yet to bed earned. Just like a huge credit card. For future generations, the wealth which is meant to fund their lives must be spent instead on debt and interest repayment.
agreed

We are creating the biggest debt mountain in history which leads to the largest interest payments on earth and doubling of trouble for our kids and grandchildren. Most likely this will cause a debt failure anyway.
agreed

Right now, our debt is $74,000 per each citizen (including minors). 42% of the US couldn’t handle a $400 unexpected bill. Check out the debt clock:

http://www.usdebtclock.org
yup. gives me nightmares worse than the boogeyman did.

So you either cut spending or raise taxes. If you raise taxes more than 2% you kill the economy. So what’s your solution?

nope. you do both. like a struggling family, you sit down at the kitchen table like a couple of adults in hard times and you look at all outflows and inflows, and you look at where you can raise revenue and reduce costs. Axeing-mispelled on purpose-Medicare Advantaage would be a ggreat start. Then scrapping regular Medicare in favor of annual direct payments to hospital districts like HCHD and physician groups to globally cover a given population's healthcare needs would be next. Raising taxes on the ultra rich, undoing trump's tax giveaway for the .1%, and undoing Bush's totally uncalled for tax giveaway of 2001-that idiot turned Clinton's surpluses into deficits with an un-paid for tax cut and unfunded war-raising taxes on companies that offshore American jobs, rebooting manufacturing to produce a favorable balance of trade, tariffs on Chinese goods subsidized by their heinous government, better immigration policies, and who knows what else, solves this problem.

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

People have been saying this shit since the 1970's. ''The budget is too big'', it's going to bankrupt us soon, our grandchildren will be crushed by debt service, etc. Meanwhile the US economy has never been stronger over any 40 year period. The Dollar is a fiat currency, which is necessary to promote growth. Those finite gold bars don't do much for growing economies.

The Chicken Littles were long ago shown to be wrong.

Is debt service too high? Sure, but it hasn't been until around a year ago. The World is under too much debt, and the Dollar is still King. Is Biden responsible for inflation? He owns a piece of it, but inflation is high around the World. The Federal Reserve is mostly responsible, if you disagree, I don't have enough time to explain it, but you are ignorant.

Can Biden assert the 14th amendment? I don't know, it may be like Trump declassifying items at will, works in theory or his head, but...

The coin thing is odd. Even if they can mint one, does it follow they can spend it at will? I doubt it.

Just raise the fucking ceiling, and fight your battles in a different framework. Go to the Press first, tell them you're a grown up, and will operate as one. Either Biden or McCarthy, the real winner does that first.

[michaelrayab]

It is a PROBLEM and won’t go away because the 2 parties that could fix it do not get along. What it equals is the slow death of America and a horrible life for those 30 or younger in 2-3 decades.

[pxmcc]

1063196663]FJB[/QUOTE]
px: i see..
a simple answer to a complex problem. boy, those are the best, when u can get 'em..

[QUOTE=mynameismudd;1063196725]I think our government should cut all the excessive spending and live within their means. Any other business that was 30 trillion in debt would be out of business, and its all the
px: agreed
government spending that is driving inflation.
px: iffy argument, but let me play the devil's advocate to my own position (and in favor of yours): pelosi $ plus supply chain snags=demand pull inflation: too much money chasing too few goods. stipulated.

Originally Posted by majorjones

FTBSWATA

px: where's my damn urban dictionary when i need it? WATA was nowhere to be found in Webster's

Originally Posted by Michael8219

Assuming debt ceiling is raised, if we hit 40 trillion in debt by 2028 we’re all screwed anyway.

px: sorta to pretty much. however, we're not greece, because our debt is denominated in #$greenbacks, not a foreign currency like the euro or the ren. if our creditors got really nasty, we could moneytize the debt by printing 30 trillion greenbacks and handing it to our creditors. "here ya go, 30 T as promised, now get off my back." greece could not print drachmas but had to come up with real money, i.e., euros.
i hear you yelling: " Fool, do you know nothing of currency devaluation and inflation?!!" and the answer is "yes indeed, but ijs we're not exactly like greece. maybe it is our creditors who were the fools not to demand by contract payment in gold bullion or federal assets such as land."
Not sure if you recall 2008 to 2010 but debt was moved to federal reserve “offing about currency balance sheet” so debts could be written down, off, or fund bear stearns, WaMu, Merrill lynch purchase etc. they just printed money and supposedly paid the debt back.
px: true, but crazy, either all or almost all of th at $ got paid back. i don't think they took a cash position to Wa Mu or Bear Stearns, but they sure did for a million other firms to prevent global econoermic collapse. score 1 for obama. his family at dinner time would describe their day in terms of roses and thorns. after hearing many days of her father's days' thorns, Malia declared: "Dad, you have a thorny job." indeed..

In the olden days they reported money supply ($ in circulation). Now they make it up.
px: yup

14th amendment is flawed: “authorized by law”… assuming this means if a budget or pork barrel legislation was approved, it’s authorized by law. But what if it was stupid in that we don’t have the money or tax revenue to pay it back?
px: tough nookies. don't be an idiot is the lesson learned, not "you're an idiot, so you get a free pass to screw your creditors."Eventually your currency becomes worthless.
px: yes, this can happen. in italy it takes several thousand lire to buy a pizza.
So is holding the debt hostage perfect? No. But somehow we have to get back to reality
agreedbut I’m thinking that’s not going to happen.it does look grim. where's jfk when you need him?

National debt is the consumption of wealth that has yet to bed earned. Just like a huge credit card. For future generations, the wealth which is meant to fund their lives must be spent instead on debt and interest repayment.
agreed

We are creating the biggest debt mountain in history which leads to the largest interest payments on earth and doubling of trouble for our kids and grandchildren. Most likely this will cause a debt failure anyway.
agreed

Right now, our debt is $74,000 per each citizen (including minors). 42% of the US couldn’t handle a $400 unexpected bill. Check out the debt clock:

http://www.usdebtclock.org
yup. gives me nightmares worse than the boogeyman did.

So you either cut spending or raise taxes. If you raise taxes more than 2% you kill the economy. So what’s your solution?

nope. you do both. like a struggling family, you sit down at the kitchen table like a couple of adults in hard times and you look at all outflows and inflows, and you look at where you can raise revenue and reduce costs. Axeing-mispelled on purpose-Medicare Advantage would be a ggreat start. Then scrapping regular Medicare in favor of annual direct payments to hospital districts like HCHD and physician groups to globally cover a given population's healthcare needs would be next. Raising taxes on the ultra rich, undoing trump's tax giveaway for the .1%, and undoing Bush's totally uncalled for tax giveaway of 2001-that idiot turned Clinton's surpluses into deficits with an un-paid for tax cut and unfunded war-raising taxes on companies that offshore American jobs, rebooting manufacturing to produce a favorable balance of trade, tariffs on Chinese goods subsidized by their heinous government, better immigration policies, and who knows what else, solves this problem.

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

People have been saying this shit since the 1970's. ''The budget is too big'', it's going to bankrupt us soon, our grandchildren will be crushed by debt service, etc. Meanwhile the US economy has never been stronger over any 40 year period. The Dollar is a fiat currency, which is necessary to promote growth. Those finite gold bars don't do much for growing economies.
agreed

The Chicken Littles were long ago shown to be wrong.
agreed

Is debt service too high? Sure, but it hasn't been until around a year ago. The World is under too much debt, and the Dollar is still King. Is Biden responsible for inflation? He owns a piece of it, but inflation is high around the World. The Federal Reserve is mostly responsible, if you disagree, I don't have enough time to explain it, but you are ignorant.
agreed, plus supply chain fuckery. the Fed was too slow to act.

Can Biden assert the 14th amendment? I don't know, it may be like Trump declassifying items at will, works in theory or his head, but...
its in the Constitution

The coin thing is odd. Even if they can mint one, does it follow they can spend it at will? I doubt it.
why not?

Just raise the fucking ceiling, and fight your battles in a different framework. Go to the Press first, tell them you're a grown up, and will operate as one. Either Biden or McCarthy, the real winner does that first.

agreed

[pxmcc]

the more i read about Trump quotes ( https://www.thebulwark.com/why-trump...e=parsely-apiq), the more convinced i am that Trump knows exactly what would happen to America and the world if the U.S. defaults. he wants slaughter and mayhem to help him get elected in 2024. he cares nothing about the suffering of regular people if the U.S. defaults. And he knows it would be awful for America. does he care about any of that? naww. never has, never will. only thing he cares about is djt; he'd sell out America in a New York minute for a Trump Tower Moscow near the Kremlin. why do you think he took all those top secret docs to Mar-a-Largo, and then had his lawyers lie about it to the FBI while Trump had his favorite top secret docs moved to a more secure location, a safe.

[500sl]

At least he hid his favorite in a top secret location! Dumb ass Biden hid his in his garage with his POS vette.

[pxmcc]

Originally Posted by 500sl

At least he hid his favorite in a top secret location! Dumb ass Biden hid his in his garage with his POS vette.

you hit the nail on the head. trump hid his nuclear triad secrets etc. (from the FBI). In crim law, we call that having "mens rea" or the "criminal mindset." biden never hid anything from the fbi, which is why his classified docs were in his vette instead of a safe; he just had a "whoops" moment. he took some homework home and forgot that the textbook is not supposed to leave the schoolhouse. like, ever.

legally, we can say he was negligent or even grossly negligent, but there was never an intent to:
1. break the law by stealing classified documents; and,
2. hide those stolen classified docs from federal law enforcement agents.

when Biden and his people found classified docs at his residence, they basically red-flagged them and delivered them, in whole and without prompting, to the National Archives. Trump moved his nuclear secrets, the CIA's sources and method docs, and Pentagon WWWIII intelligence analyses and wargames of China, Russia, and their slave states against the west to a place he thought would be safe from prying FBI eyes, his own personal safe, after having his lawyers lie to federal agents and a federal judge that a "diligent" search had been conducted of all of Trump's property (which of course turned out to be false).


as to biden's pos vette, although i've never driven a vette-actually i'm hooked on jacked up Japanese sports cars that seem to effectively combine crazy power with even more epic handling-i hope it handles better than the pos viper i rented for a weekend..

anyone know the top speed of a jacked up vette, and has anyone hit that speed? (sorry, i have ADHD and have trouble staying on topic. UC, point me if you must..)

#maga=
#makeattorneysgetattorneys
#votefordemocracy2024

[Michael8219]

CornPop was a bad dude and he ran a bunch of bad boys.

And I’m sure that Biden is wondering why everyone is talking about his vette ceiling. He wants to raise the vette ceiling but he has no money now that they’re watching Hunter and took his laptop.

[pxmcc]

^^hilarious sir..
even diehard commie left-wingers such as myself have to give praise when praise is due, even if you just owned the libs..

hunter is wondering if this whole "immature, substance addict and sex addict" gig, being the neer-do-well persona and black lamb kid of the family, could ask for a new leader.leader of the free world, is even worth it..

hunter, just stay in a spot with low profile for about 5 yrs. ok, please??!! where's Beaux Biden when you need him? sorry, totmoco allyy bad.
knew more flowers.