Another Mass Shooting In Las Vegas

[goodolboy]

Originally Posted by old_hippie

I agree with your statement above. Murder and suicide are different problems and require different solutions. But I don't agree that the availability of guns have no effect on suicide deaths. Studies have shown that suicidal people with easy access to guns are 3 times more likely to commit suicide. .

Why do you think so many country's with strict gun laws have higher suicide rates than the USA?

Again, Japan as a example has virtually no private ownership of firearms, yet their suicide rate is almost double that of the USA. France's suicide rate is about 50% higher than the US with strict gun control. Do you think tens of millions of people should lose their rights because some people choose to end their own life?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...iciderate.html

[grean]

Originally Posted by old_hippie

Would it stop all illegal guns? No. And anyone who thinks so is fooling themselves.

How effective would such a ban be? That's hard to answer. I think it would depend on how the ban is implemented and enforced.

How could it be enforced or implemented that would affect criminals?

Only people on this side of the law would cooperate.

Thinking gun control will end gun violence is like think trumps fucking wall will stop drugs from entering the country. The bad guys dig under the wall. The bad guys will figure out a way to get guns and violence will continue.

Good guys will then have been stripped of the 2A right for nothing.

The asshole in Vegas would still have aquired what ever he wanted.

If slinging pussy was legal, you might hobby more, maybe less. Did it's current legal status stop you from having your last session?

[old_hippie]

Originally Posted by goodolboy

Why do you think so many country's with strict gun laws have higher suicide rates than the USA?

Again, Japan as a example has virtually no private ownership of firearms, yet their suicide rate is almost double that of the USA. France's suicide rate is about 50% higher than the US with strict gun control. Do you think tens of millions of people should lose their rights because some people choose to end their own life?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...iciderate.html

You’re conflating suicide deaths and suicide attempts. The two are related but caused by different factors. People attempt suicide basically because they are experiencing acute depression and a sense of hopelessness. There are a myriad of factors (social, economic, mental health, cultural, etc.) that would cause someone to attempt suicide. Suicide deaths are a result of how many people attempt suicide and what method they use. As I explained in my previous post, not all suicide attempts result in death.

So let’s apply this to your example of Japan. (btw: The data in your link is a bit outdated. It’s from 2005. The numbers have changed since then. Japan’s rate has decreased to 17.5 and the US has increased to 13.5.) A study done in 2016 estimates that there are 530,000 suicide attempts annually in Japan. That resulted in about 22,000 deaths. That means a little over 4% of attempts resulted in death. Again, as I stated in my previous post, 90% of attempts with a gun result in death.

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles...0m/0na/003000c

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20.../#.WfguqXZrxfE

So what do you think would happen if guns were available in Japan and used to attempt suicide at the same rate as here in the US? Guns are used in about 6% of attempts in the US (and account for half of the total deaths from suicide). If you do the math, it would result in an additional 28,000 deaths. If you apply this to France, you will see a similar result.

https://www.thetrace.org/2016/09/10-...vention-month/

So my point is that guns may not have an effect on the number of suicide attempts but it certainly has an effect on suicide deaths.

One last point. No one is talking about taking away people’s rights. Certainly not me. I’m just saying that we should have some common sense gun laws to try and reduce the number of deaths.

[old_hippie]

Originally Posted by grean

How could it be enforced or implemented that would affect criminals?

Only people on this side of the law would cooperate.

Thinking gun control will end gun violence is like think trumps fucking wall will stop drugs from entering the country. The bad guys dig under the wall. The bad guys will figure out a way to get guns and violence will continue.

Good guys will then have been stripped of the 2A right for nothing.

The asshole in Vegas would still have aquired what ever he wanted.

If slinging pussy was legal, you might hobby more, maybe less. Did it's current legal status stop you from having your last session?

I think we are straying a little off topic here. You were asking about illegal guns. Which I took to mean guns purchased by people who shouldn’t have guns (i.e. criminals).

Again, no one is talking about taking away anybody’s rights. I’m just saying that we should have some common sense gun laws. Like a background check on ALL gun sales. How would that prevent a “good guy” from buying a gun?

Of course no law would prevent ALL occurrences of a particular crime. But do we apply that litmus test to ANY law? If we did, we wouldn’t have any laws at all would we?

[grean]

Originally Posted by old_hippie

I think we are straying a little off topic here. You were asking about illegal guns. Which I took to mean guns purchased by people who shouldn’t have guns (i.e. criminals).

Again, no one is talking about taking away anybody’s rights. I’m just saying that we should have some common sense gun laws. Like a background check on ALL gun sales. How would that prevent a “good guy” from buying a gun?

Of course no law would prevent ALL occurrences of a particular crime. But do we apply that litmus test to ANY law? If we did, we wouldn’t have any laws at all would we?

Why would it matter then? Vegas had 0 priors. A background check would have said he was a good guy.

[rexdutchman]

Point the way I see it is - bad people will find away to do bad things / taking gun away from law abiding people will not stop that only make it easier for bad guys

[old_hippie]

Originally Posted by grean

Why would it matter then? Vegas had 0 priors. A background check would have said he was a good guy.

That is true. He wasn't a criminal until he committed that act. He was a "good guy" when he bought all those guns and bump stocks to make them more lethal. Isn't that what you are advocating for? That good guys should be able to buy guns?

[grean]

Originally Posted by old_hippie

That is true. He wasn't a criminal until he committed that act. He was a "good guy" when he bought all those guns and bump stocks to make them more lethal. Isn't that what you are advocating for? That good guys should be able to buy guns?

I'm only saying that gun laws will never stop this. It's tragic and unfortunately, also u preventable

[goodolboy]

Originally Posted by old_hippie

You’re conflating suicide deaths and suicide attempts. The two are related but caused by different factors. People attempt suicide basically because they are experiencing acute depression and a sense of hopelessness. There are a myriad of factors (social, economic, mental health, cultural, etc.) that would cause someone to attempt suicide. Suicide deaths are a result of how many people attempt suicide and what method they use. As I explained in my previous post, not all suicide attempts result in death.

So let’s apply this to your example of Japan. (btw: The data in your link is a bit outdated. It’s from 2005. The numbers have changed since then. Japan’s rate has decreased to 17.5 and the US has increased to 13.5.) A study done in 2016 estimates that there are 530,000 suicide attempts annually in Japan. That resulted in about 22,000 deaths. That means a little over 4% of attempts resulted in death. Again, as I stated in my previous post, 90% of attempts with a gun result in death.

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles...0m/0na/003000c

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20.../#.WfguqXZrxfE

So what do you think would happen if guns were available in Japan and used to attempt suicide at the same rate as here in the US? Guns are used in about 6% of attempts in the US (and account for half of the total deaths from suicide). If you do the math, it would result in an additional 28,000 deaths. If you apply this to France, you will see a similar result.

https://www.thetrace.org/2016/09/10-...vention-month/

So my point is that guns may not have an effect on the number of suicide attempts but it certainly has an effect on suicide deaths.

One last point. No one is talking about taking away people’s rights. Certainly not me. I’m just saying that we should have some common sense gun laws to try and reduce the number of deaths.

I call bull shit, but believe what you wish. .In the link is a graph of suicide deaths by country.

"Nevertheless, lumping suicides in with homicides is a key component of anti-gun propaganda. The Brady campaign, for example, does not employ homicide rates in its state-by-state analysis. If it did, it would find that the states with the least amount of gun control often have the lowest homicide rates." https://mises.org/blog/guns-dont-cause-suicide

[old_hippie]

Originally Posted by goodolboy

I call bull shit, but believe what you wish. .In the link is a graph of suicide deaths by country.

"Nevertheless, lumping suicides in with homicides is a key component of anti-gun propaganda. The Brady campaign, for example, does not employ homicide rates in its state-by-state analysis. If it did, it would find that the states with the least amount of gun control often have the lowest homicide rates." https://mises.org/blog/guns-dont-cause-suicide

The link you provided doesn't refute anything I have said. In fact, it doesn't even address what I have been talking about.

So what specifically do you think is bullshit and what evidence do you have to support your claim?

[rexdutchman]

Trucks are next by the liberals logic , we need to look into why People feel the need to do bad things

[grean]

Originally Posted by rexdutchman

Trucks are next by the liberals logic , we need to look into why People feel the need to do bad things

Well liberal logic isn't all bad. That logic may get the hobby legalized.

[goodolboy]

Originally Posted by old_hippie

The link you provided doesn't refute anything I have said. In fact, it doesn't even address what I have been talking about.

So what specifically do you think is bullshit and what evidence do you have to support your claim?

The fact that so many countries with low access to firearms have higher rates of death by suicide than the US. What evidence do you have that shows that gun bans will make people that want to kill themselves change their mind?

[old_hippie]

Originally Posted by goodolboy

The fact that so many countries with low access to firearms have higher rates of death by suicide than the US. What evidence do you have that shows that gun bans will make people that want to kill themselves change their mind?

You're clearly not understanding what I'm saying. I did not say gun bans will make people change their minds. What I am saying is they will choose a less lethal method to attempting suicide. Which will result in less deaths. I have shown you the evidence. You just choose to ignore it.

[goodolboy]

Originally Posted by old_hippie

You're clearly not understanding what I'm saying. I did not say gun bans will make people change their minds. What I am saying is they will choose a less lethal method to attempting suicide. Which will result in less deaths. I have shown you the evidence. You just choose to ignore it.

What law would you propose to keep people from committing suicide successfully?