Another website is taken down.

[Malicious]

Originally Posted by Nicolet

http://www.skyvalleychronicle.com/BR...EBSITE-2369666

I think that this is good news.

[tandyscone]

Originally Posted by Woodford

Thank you solitare, for explaining. I am flabbergasted at someone on this forum that buys into the human trafficking hysterical bullshit.

Actually, I don't buy into the human trafficking hysterical bullshit. I also don't buy into the review boards make it so much better for prostitutes that no one should ever suspect them of anything bad bullshit. If you uncritically assume that every police bust that claims trafficking is bogus, then you are no different than someone who uncritically assumes that every police bust is legit.

Originally Posted by Woodford

As for factual evidence, only my personal experience. Over 5 dozen personal experiences, and not a shred of evidence of any of the crap the human traffickers claim.

Five dozen personal experiences, and there was no evidence that even one of them might have been pimped?

[Fancylady]

All adult websites and verification websites promoting prostitution Illegal.Prostitution illegal in all states but Nevada.....Doesn't matter who takes a poll about anything.

[pyramider]

Which is why the smart ones are offshore ...

[tandyscone]

Thank you for a thoughtful reply; it is quite helpful.

Originally Posted by Solitaire

I think this would be the subject of a great Poll, if enough categories were represented

I thought of a poll when I was writing my original message. You're right, though, about coming up with enough categories (as well as anticipating what categories to include). I would also be concerned about ensuring that only providers were allowed to respond, that the ladies were confident enough of their anonymity to be truly honest, and that the poll represented a statistically representative sample.

Originally Posted by Solitaire

The way to prove or disprove is to simply ask, and actually listen to the answers.

I'd like to believe that I am a skillful enough listener to do as you say, but to be honest, I'm not sure that I am.

Originally Posted by Solitaire

The vast majority (online) are funding some sort of post-secondary educational path, so trust me they are workin on that other line of work, and they "know how to get there". A gentleman should feel honored that he could get to contribute to such a worthwhile cause.

Many of us have already completed such path, have worked in the professional/corporate arena... some even run other businesses (surprise!)

Ah, Solitaire, I wish I could believe that you are right. Then I could happily go mongering and not worry about whether I was contributing to another's misery or not.

Originally Posted by Solitaire

I do not deny the existence of our marginalized sisters: those who are managed by pimps, or managed by a drug, or bonafide victims of trafficking... and if their cumulative numbers were totaled over the eons of time, maybe they would be in the majority. But if you take a snapshot of the industry, at any given time, they would not be in the majority, as it is impossible to "handle one's business" in that condition for very long.

The notion that most of us are desperate and without hope is the myth that feeds the stigma, and the fantasies of those who would do us harm.

The myth that all of you are strong women and in control of your destinies could also be used to do you harm. Which is the myth? Are both myths? The crux of the matter is how many "marginalized sisters" are there? If you are right, and they are a small minority, then by all means, let's not worry about message boards; they are probably not contributing to their marginalization. If they are a majority, or even a significant minority, however, I think all who find value in message boards should at least have some interest in improving the boards so they don't contribute to marginalization of some. I am reminded of a quote from Isaac Asimov's short story "Shah Guido G": "Ought I to ask questions of the world as it is when it suits me so well?"

Originally Posted by Solitaire

And we will never know, since they were so quickly swept away to be deported, without their voices ever being heard.

I agree that we don't know now. I had not read that they were going to be deported; I would have expected that they would have been kept in the country at least long enough to testify at trial.

Originally Posted by Solitaire

And this is how you really know a true victim from an agenda. Typically, anytime anyone has actually been rescued, we've gotten their stories, a book deal, a LifeTime movie, the whole works.

Sorry, but I don't agree with you here. I am highly suspicious of any story that is commercialized so much. The monetary rewards are so great, it is a big inducement to be less than completely truthful.

Originally Posted by Solitaire

This whole thing reminds of another group of marginalized people. Many people, back in the day, who were considered odd by societies standards (short people, the bearded lady, etc), and who could not find employment elsewhere, could live a pretty nice life with the traveling circus. That is until a group of ladies made it their purpose to "rescue" those poor souls from exploitation. Whether they needed or wanted rescue mattered none. Many were saved and made destitute.

And if I'm not mistaken, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they the same ladies who pushed for the illegalization of alcohol and prostitution as well?

I was not aware that the members of the temperence movement also were involved with prohibiting prostitution as well as alcohol, or with the rights of candidates for circus freak shows, but you may be right. My impression, though, is that the (or at least one of the) motivation behind prohibiton of alcohol was a concern about the prevalence of domestic violence carried out by husbands on their wives and children. They believed that alcohol was a major contributing factor to that violence, and that by eliminating alcohol, they could reduce the violence as well. I think everyone will agree that prohibition was an unmitigated failure. On the other hand, the repeal of prohibition did not reduce the amount of domestic violence either. I am generally in favor of legalizing prostitution, but I don't believe that will actually do much to improve the lot of the marginalized women. Germany has legalized prostitution, but as far as I can tell, it has done little to improve the lot of prostitutes. Some claim that pimping has actually increased both in quantity and in severity. Sweden, on the other hand, has made it completely legal to provide sex for pay, but implemented relatively stiff penalties for paying for sex. It seems that approach is showing signs that it is actually pretty effective at reducing human trafficking and pimping. Shit, I don't want that to be true! Whether I want it to be true or not, however, is not going to effect whether it is true or not.

To get back to the original topic of the thread, I don't know whether the board that was taken down was actually involved human trafficking or not. I primarily wanted to point out that it might be the case.

[tandyscone]

Originally Posted by pyramider

Which is why the smart ones are offshore ...

Makes P411 look better and better. Also, I don't think anybody has commented on this yet, but one of the sites reported that the board in question had recorded driver's license information on all the men who registered (maybe employment info also; I don't remember). The PD was reporting that they would make that list available to anyone who wanted to see it.

[ck1942]

The P has been around for centuries. Almost always prosecuted or persecuted by the legal authorities or the Church dons.

That said,

two bits the feds will never ever be able to shut down a site like BP. Too many financial resources to support its existence and LEGALLY protected under the First Amendment and Federal law (and case law, too) by the 230 Section of the Federal 247 Code.

Link to 230 discussion: https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/230

However, way less financially able websites may have few resources to support a federal or a state court fight.

AND, if the fight is around "human trafficking," "money laundering" or other federal (not state) laws, then the site will go down either quietly or without putting up much of a fight. btw, there is no federal "promoting prostitution" criminal law. Thus, if the site itself or its owners/sponsors are not actively promoting, but merely hosting the posts of 3rd parties, then the feds and the states are stymied legally.

Add in that if the site is hosted offshore, very unlikely that an offshore webhost will submit to any U.S. federal or state court order. However, in the instance of TRB, it appears that the site was not only hosted in the U.S., but was also registered by GoDaddy which is a U.S. based corporation subject to applicable court orders.

And if the website is actively participating in or profiting from its 3rd party activities, very likely it will be targeted for court action.

Yes, some offshore sites have been successfully targeted -- child porn, drug busts, terrorism, weapons and copyright offenses, certain computer crimes, all come to mind -- but usually only with the cooperation of off shore governmental entities.

And then there are always "civil" suits for a website to contend with.

The December New Zealand court ruling allowing the extradition of Kim Dotcom from New Zealand to face U.S. criminal copyright charges, for example.

= = = = =

There are some very very private P type websites out there in which the sites do not require much if any personal data of their members. And other sites with a more open membership process, but still have very private, verified (?) member only area. Usually very local, sometimes a regional or statewide or multi-state or country site. And, of course, the very open, very international sites or multi-national sites.

Most of the successful sites require some sort of revenue in order to host and to grow. And if the sites are operated properly, they usually may be paying taxes on revenues or profits, in order to keep the "doors" open.

Of course, way many, many more websites that have failed along the way, too.

But unless and until the P is legalized in some fashion in the U.S., the U.S. based sites or U.S. operated sites will always be targets for LE and moralists.

[bayoucadillac]

Originally Posted by ck1942

The P has been around for centuries. Almost always prosecuted or persecuted by the legal authorities or the Church dons.

That said,

two bits the feds will never ever be able to shut down a site like BP. Too many financial resources to support its existence and LEGALLY protected under the First Amendment and Federal law (and case law, too) by the 230 Section of the Federal 247 Code.

Link to 230 discussion: https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/230

However, way less financially able websites may have few resources to support a federal or a state court fight.

AND, if the fight is around "human trafficking," "money laundering" or other federal (not state) laws, then the site will go down either quietly or without putting up much of a fight. btw, there is no federal "promoting prostitution" criminal law. Thus, if the site itself or its owners/sponsors are not actively promoting, but merely hosting the posts of 3rd parties, then the feds and the states are stymied legally.

Add in that if the site is hosted offshore, very unlikely that an offshore webhost will submit to any U.S. federal or state court order. However, in the instance of TRB, it appears that the site was not only hosted in the U.S., but was also registered by GoDaddy which is a U.S. based corporation subject to applicable court orders.

And if the website is actively participating in or profiting from its 3rd party activities, very likely it will be targeted for court action.

Yes, some offshore sites have been successfully targeted -- child porn, drug busts, terrorism, weapons and copyright offenses, certain computer crimes, all come to mind -- but usually only with the cooperation of off shore governmental entities.

And then there are always "civil" suits for a website to contend with.

The December New Zealand court ruling allowing the extradition of Kim Dotcom from New Zealand to face U.S. criminal copyright charges, for example.

= = = = =

There are some very very private P type websites out there in which the sites do not require much if any personal data of their members. And other sites with a more open membership process, but still have very private, verified (?) member only area. Usually very local, sometimes a regional or statewide or multi-state or country site. And, of course, the very open, very international sites or multi-national sites.

Most of the successful sites require some sort of revenue in order to host and to grow. And if the sites are operated properly, they usually may be paying taxes on revenues or profits, in order to keep the "doors" open.

Of course, way many, many more websites that have failed along the way, too.

But unless and until the P is legalized in some fashion in the U.S., the U.S. based sites or U.S. operated sites will always be targets for LE and moralists.

Great information......thanks for clarifying.

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by tandyscone

Do you have any factual evidence to support the claim that the vast majority participate on a purely voluntary basis? Every provider on the board is going to say that she is here only because she wants to be and because she loves sex. Why? Suppose a provider said, "I hate being a provider. All you guys are lousy lays. If I could find anything else in the world that would let me lead a decent life, I would take it in a minute." How many hobbyists would want to schedule with her? I am sure there are some women on this board who truly do love being a provider, who love sex, and enjoy almost every session. My guess, though, is that the vast majority actually would prefer another line of work, but can't figure out how to get there. And that is a guess; I don't really know how to prove or disprove it.

As far as human trafficking goes, if it is true that the core of men that were targeted were bringing women from Korea illegally, it is hard for me to see how that could not be trafficking. For argument's sake, I will presume that when the ladies were approached in Korea, they were told right up front that they would be coming to the US to be prostitutes, and they readily agreed. (I doubt if that were the case.) Once they get to the US, what choices do they have? They can't get a valid SSN, so they will have difficulty managing money in anything but cash. If their "managers" mistreat them, who can they complain to? If they decide they no longer want to be prostitutes, how do they get any other job? How do they return to Korea if they want to? They may not be physically coerced, but they are just as trapped as if they were.

You ask some legitimate questions, but I believe you are significantly biased in how you present your some of your arguments.

I make no claim to be an expert, but I have interacted with this corner of the world for several decades. I have met many ladies, and have had ongoing long relationships with quite a few, lasting well over 15 years in cases. Not romantic relationships, but friendships of varying degrees. As a result I have seen a lot of these women after they have let their guard down, and have every reason to believe that what I have seen is an accurate depiction of their realities. If I include their friends, often other women who spend time in this business, then the sample size is larger still. I do not imply what I “know” is true of other ladies, but I have to think it is true for many of them. If you flip a coin 100 times and get 96 heads, it tells you something about the coin.

Of all the ladies I have come to know, not a single one was coerced/forced into the business, nor was a single one kept in the business against her will. Most left when they decided it was the right time to leave. Of all the ladies I have had dates with, there have been a small number--significantly less that 5% I would guess--who had any sign of being trafficked. Only one would I think definitively was.

Almost all of them did, however, have days they wished they had a different job—but that is far from a sign of trafficking. There are days when I really wish I had a different job, and I would dare say almost every working person has. I don’t change jobs because on balance—considering the work, the income, the flexibility, the conditions, my co-workers, and the alternatives—I can’t come up with a better option for what matters to me. I strongly suspect the same is true for most the women. If this is the best way for them to make enough money to support themselves & family—all things considered—and they then decide to stay, well I do not see that as trafficking.

But is IS a business. I was talking with one friend today because she wanted my reaction to her new web layout. I know her very well, and yes, some of what she says in her web site is—GASP!!!—not true! It is advertising, so of course she says she is absolutely loving every minute with every client. Everyone understands that advertising is 10% truth and 90% SALES. In her case I know she screens for compatibility as well as safety, and actually does enjoy most dates with most clients—but of course she is not going to say the kinds of things you hypothesize because it would be bad for business. But I have exactly the same situation in my line of work, as does almost every working person. That is not a sign of trafficking either—it is the reality of working.

Would most prefer another line of work? I think you might be surprised that it is far from universally true. What I think is a sad point is how many feel they must continue to work in this field past the time they want to stop—because they have not started planning their exit strategy early enough. But again, no different that the friends of mine in different lines of work who want to retire/change jobs only to find that they either have not saved enough to retire or have not developed the skills to change jobs.

So yes, from everything I have seen the majority on here and similar sites are here voluntarily. And that in many ways it is like any other career choice with good and bad parts. Only the individual lady can decide if it is right for her.

What evidence do you have that they are not here freely?

Finally you bring up the point of Korean women who come to the US. I would be disingenuous if I said there are no trafficking issues with foreign women—Korean, Mexica, Russian, Thai, ….--working here. Some of them are trafficked, yes. Some are not. I do not know the percentages either way.

[watchoutthegameisrigged]

A voice of reason.

[tandyscone]

Originally Posted by Old-T

You ask some legitimate questions, but I believe you are significantly biased in how you present your some of your arguments.

I make no claim to be an expert, but I have interacted with this corner of the world for several decades. I have met many ladies, and have had ongoing long relationships with quite a few, lasting well over 15 years in cases. Not romantic relationships, but friendships of varying degrees. As a result I have seen a lot of these women after they have let their guard down, and have every reason to believe that what I have seen is an accurate depiction of their realities. If I include their friends, often other women who spend time in this business, then the sample size is larger still. I do not imply what I “know” is true of other ladies, but I have to think it is true for many of them. If you flip a coin 100 times and get 96 heads, it tells you something about the coin.

Of all the ladies I have come to know, not a single one was coerced/forced into the business, nor was a single one kept in the business against her will. Most left when they decided it was the right time to leave. Of all the ladies I have had dates with, there have been a small number--significantly less that 5% I would guess--who had any sign of being trafficked. Only one would I think definitively was.

Almost all of them did, however, have days they wished they had a different job—but that is far from a sign of trafficking. There are days when I really wish I had a different job, and I would dare say almost every working person has. I don’t change jobs because on balance—considering the work, the income, the flexibility, the conditions, my co-workers, and the alternatives—I can’t come up with a better option for what matters to me. I strongly suspect the same is true for most the women. If this is the best way for them to make enough money to support themselves & family—all things considered—and they then decide to stay, well I do not see that as trafficking.

But is IS a business. I was talking with one friend today because she wanted my reaction to her new web layout. I know her very well, and yes, some of what she says in her web site is—GASP!!!—not true! It is advertising, so of course she says she is absolutely loving every minute with every client. Everyone understands that advertising is 10% truth and 90% SALES. In her case I know she screens for compatibility as well as safety, and actually does enjoy most dates with most clients—but of course she is not going to say the kinds of things you hypothesize because it would be bad for business. But I have exactly the same situation in my line of work, as does almost every working person. That is not a sign of trafficking either—it is the reality of working.

Would most prefer another line of work? I think you might be surprised that it is far from universally true. What I think is a sad point is how many feel they must continue to work in this field past the time they want to stop—because they have not started planning their exit strategy early enough. But again, no different that the friends of mine in different lines of work who want to retire/change jobs only to find that they either have not saved enough to retire or have not developed the skills to change jobs.

So yes, from everything I have seen the majority on here and similar sites are here voluntarily. And that in many ways it is like any other career choice with good and bad parts. Only the individual lady can decide if it is right for her.

What evidence do you have that they are not here freely?

Finally you bring up the point of Korean women who come to the US. I would be disingenuous if I said there are no trafficking issues with foreign women—Korean, Mexica, Russian, Thai, ….--working here. Some of them are trafficked, yes. Some are not. I do not know the percentages either way.

Thanks, that is quite helpful. You are right, I am biased. Part of critical thinking (and yes, I try to use critical thinking even when it comes to the hobby) is that you challenge your own assumptions, especially the ones that are most appealing to you. So I question the idea that all the women on this board are here willingly, and I question it strongly, precisely because it would be so nice for me if it were true.

You and I are at opposite ends of the experience spectrum. My experience in the hobby is quite limited in the time I have been hobbying, the number of providers I have seen, and the number of times I have been with each provider. With that limited experience, I would say that 40% of the providers seemed to me to be in the business voluntarily, and had other viable options if they wanted to get out of the business, 40% seemed like they didn't really like what they were doing, and I suspect 20% were pimped. Again, these are just my impressions. I obviously have not been around long enough, and I certainly have not interacted with any of the providers enough times, to be certain.

You ask what evidence I have that they are not here freely. I hope by now it is clear that I have no evidence and I know that I have none. That's why I called it a guess. The basis for the guess is my own limited experience and my evaluation of what I have read about the hobby, both positive and negative. I don't consider much of that, if any, actual evidence.

As far as the trafficking issue, let me start by saying I find human trafficking repugnant, and I applaud legitimate LE efforts to stop it. (Note that I don't consider all LE efforts to make trafficking arrests legitimate.)

In my earlier post, I was not talking about foreign, or even Korean, women in general. I was talking about TRB, the particular board bust that was at the start of this thread, and the media report that the men running the board were bringing Korean women into the US illegally in order to engage in prostitution. IF that report were accurate (and I know it might not be), then in this particular case, LE should have gone after the men running the board. In my opinion, LE efforts against prostitution in general are more for PR and political gain, and do not actually help anyone but the PD and local politicians, but even with all that, occasionally LE gets it right. All I'm saying is that this might be one of those times.

Finally, although I was talking about a specific case, I would generalize my earlier statement that I don't see how it can be anything but human trafficking when someone brings a woman into the country illegally and then managers her as a prostitute. I gave specific reasons for that. If anyone can point out to me how my specific reasons are invalid, or something that I overlooked, I would be happy to have that conversation.

[Guest122317-1]

wow.. I noticed that Adult hobby board is down now to.. was it taken down or just because of finances

[GinaXXX]

Another thing to keep in mind is that when faced with an arrest, particularly if your immigration status is questionable, the smart thing to do is to claim you are a victim of trafficking. There is a visa available to "victims of trafficking", that would not be otherwise available. So of course the providers in this situation know to jump on that bandwagon when the opportunity presents itself.

http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/vi...migrant-status

I'm not saying that there isn't a lot of crazy stuff that goes on in this industry, including manipulation, abuse and destructive relationships. However, these things often go on regardless of the industry a woman is in.

I know many, many women who were trafficked and pimped (I was pimped for many years), who leave the destructive relationships but continue to work in this industry. The abusive relationships have little to do with what the woman does for a living, and very often the industry remains the constant while the women moves through different stages of her life.

You can still make a living in this industry, after leaving a manipulative situation, while recovering from a drug or alcohol addiction, while you rebuild your life and become a stable and functioning member of society. This business and negativity can go hand in hand, but it's not an absolute necessity for that to be the case.

If it wasn't for this business, I'd probably be living in a shitty little town with a bunch of dirty kids getting my ass kicked by my drunken husband in a crappy little house. This business gave me a way to get out of the hellhole that was my white trash reality, and I know many women who feel the same. This business gave me the power to control my destiny, and I know that even if a provider is in a messed up situation today, it doesn't mean she has to be in a messed up situation tomorrow.

This business can give you the money you need to move past a miserable existence.... and if you claim you are a "victim of trafficking" when faced with an arrest, it can also be the golden ticket to the land of plenty.

Always,
Gina

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by tandyscone

Thanks, that is quite helpful. You are right, I am biased. Part of critical thinking (and yes, I try to use critical thinking even when it comes to the hobby) is that you challenge your own assumptions, especially the ones that are most appealing to you. So I question the idea that all the women on this board are here willingly, and I question it strongly, precisely because it would be so nice for me if it were true.
I applaud your doing so. Too often we check our logical reasoning when we enter here. Usually to our detriment.

You and I are at opposite ends of the experience spectrum. My experience in the hobby is quite limited in the time I have been hobbying, the number of providers I have seen, and the number of times I have been with each provider. With that limited experience, I would say that 40% of the providers seemed to me to be in the business voluntarily, and had other viable options if they wanted to get out of the business, 40% seemed like they didn't really like what they were doing, and I suspect 20% were pimped. Again, these are just my impressions. I obviously have not been around long enough, and I certainly have not interacted with any of the providers enough times, to be certain.
Your numbers are probably pretty close to accurate for the cross-section of ladies you have seen. I have found it isn't all that difficult to tell whether a lady enjoys my company--either professional women or social ladies. I would also argue that listening to what they post, looking at their photos (the face), you can get a pretty good first sense of whether they are happy about they work. Exchange some PMs or reply on line to their posts and you get a better picture still. Not infallible, but a strong correlation.

You ask what evidence I have that they are not here freely. I hope by now it is clear that I have no evidence and I know that I have none. That's why I called it a guess. The basis for the guess is my own limited experience and my evaluation of what I have read about the hobby, both positive and negative. I don't consider much of that, if any, actual evidence.
I disagree. It is not "proof", but an observant man certainly sees evidence if they look.

As far as the trafficking issue, let me start by saying I find human trafficking repugnant, and I applaud legitimate LE efforts to stop it. (Note that I don't consider all LE efforts to make trafficking arrests legitimate.)
Completely agree with you on these points.

In my earlier post, I was not talking about foreign, or even Korean, women in general. I was talking about TRB, the particular board bust that was at the start of this thread, and the media report that the men running the board were bringing Korean women into the US illegally in order to engage in prostitution. IF that report were accurate (and I know it might not be), then in this particular case, LE should have gone after the men running the board. In my opinion, LE efforts against prostitution in general are more for PR and political gain, and do not actually help anyone but the PD and local politicians, but even with all that, occasionally LE gets it right. All I'm saying is that this might be one of those times.
I do not know enough to have an informed opinion on this particular case.

Finally, although I was talking about a specific case, I would generalize my earlier statement that I don't see how it can be anything but human trafficking when someone brings a woman into the country illegally and then managers her as a prostitute. I gave specific reasons for that. If anyone can point out to me how my specific reasons are invalid, or something that I overlooked, I would be happy to have that conversation.

I see nothing to argue with in your closing point.

I guess the biggest area where I would elaborate upon--not contradict--what you said are the 40% who do not seem to like the line of work. I agree there are a number of ladies who definitely would prefer to be elsewhere--or at least would prefer the luxury of being more selective. That often relates to a lack of choices, poor business planning, or poor life choices--but not always being trafficked or pimped.

Nice to exchange thoughts with you, sir.

[MOCHAakaMOCHA]

Originally Posted by wendlo

wow.. I noticed that Adult hobby board is down now to.. was it taken down or just because of finances

Hey wendlo....thought it was just me -_O.
I hope it's just maintenance.