Where are the Classy Girls? Also, Tips for Gentlemen

[TravelingGentleman]

Where are all the high class girls?

I saw and read the thread, "Where are all the high class gents" and was motivated to write this in response. I'm obviously new to ECCIE - I didn't know it existed until a few days ago, so I've been browsing - and this is my first post - even before an introductions thread. We'll see how quickly I get chased out of here for my opinions.

Classy gentlemen want classy girls. For my time spent surfing around the incredible number of providers who describe themselves as "elegant" or "upscale" or who are looking for upscale gentlemen, I haven't seen much to recommend...not that shopping in this proverbial store would do me any good because no one is newbie friendly. Even the advertised newbie friendly ones want references....Except I'd say that by definition, "Classy" means that a gentleman isn't surfing around providers, they are looking for (for lack of a better word) a mistress.

Being upscale or high class is the complete antithesis of having a laundry list of provider references. Are you a a classy girl? Do you have a high opinion of your worth? Then you should be willing to let a gentleman buy you dinner and drinks while compensating you for your time, SOLELY for the pleasure of your wit, your companionship, and your ability to make him feel wanted, without asking for a list of prostitutes that he's slept with. Because if he has one to give you, he's a john, not a gentleman.

That's right. A classy girl's value is not between her legs. It's between her ears. It's her ability to make a man feel special, and wanted by someone whom he finds desirable.

So, where are all the classy girls? I'd say these are the pretty bare-bones requirements:

-A graduate degree isn't required, but I daresay that literacy is. High-school level graduate ability to read, write, and construct a coherent sentence.
-Some basic understanding of current events, and a desire to explore and learn about the things their companion is interested in to enhance conversation.
-An understanding of what a social chameleon is, and how to be one. If you're attending a dinner party, you don't wear a hooker outfit. If the table is discussing subprime interest rates, you don't chime in to talk about your cat.
-The ability to role-play, and enough social grace to be able to pass the barest of scrutiny during introductions. Today your name might be Rebecca from Marketing. Tomorrow,you're Becky from GS - consulting on a merger with me. Why? Because personal companions don't belong at these functions, but I want to WANT you there anyway just to be in the presence of an intoxicatingly beautiful woman.
-Your pictures. Good grief. I'm tired of looking at provider pictures showing pictures of their buttocks, breasts, and legs. If you don't have a professionally taken picture of yourself wearing something elegant that I want to see attached on my arm at a social function, you're not it.
-Willingness to be a travel companion.
-Reasonable expectations for *being* a travel companion. If I want to fly you ($500) to a port to take you on a 7-day all expenses paid cruise in the Caribbean ($1500 for a balcony suite), and your rate is $500/hr...as much as the plane ticket...without some reasonable expectations, that's an $84,000 tab for your companionship. Um...nope. There's an endless list of women who would love to have an all-expenses paid trip to somewhere - ANYWHERE - and would ask for no compensation in return. Intimacy certainly isn't going to be part of the package, but a friendship certainly would be. Think about what the difference is worth.
-Likewise for business trips. If I'm flying somewhere on business, and want to bring a companion to hang out with after a day of meetings....reasonable expectations.
-Did I mention pictures? Why does everyone block out their faces? A classy girl understands that 75-90% of their time with a gentleman is fully clothed, and whether she's pleasant to look at during conversation is probably the biggest deciding factor for whether they're a potential companion.

Copyright in the U.S. has spun out of control over the last decade because IP holders have decided that they should be able to patent "XYZ....on the internet." Just because someone figured out how to do something on a computer doesn't make it new or different...or patentable, as appeals courts and the SCOTUS are beginning to affirm.

Likewise, just because a hooker gets a computer doesn't make her new or different. Advertising that you're upscale or elegant doesn't MAKE you so, especially when your profiles, pictures, and websites point to your ideal hotel being payable by the hour.

[TravelingGentleman]

As a follow-up post, I see the word "gentleman" abused to describe just about every male entry into the species homo sapien. I hereby reclaim the word to it's secondary definition, of a civilized, educated, sensitive man that is well-mannered: Gentleman. I'll pass on the actual definition, which had/has to do with English gentry and medieval aristocracy.

Since I just ranted about what a lady and a companion is, here's the requirements of being a gentleman:


-If you don't own a suit and tie, you've just disqualified yourself.
-Likewise, if you don't know how to tie your own tie, you've just disqualified yourself.
-Shine your shoes. Seriously, shine them. Or pony up $10 to have someone at the hotel or airport do it for you.
-Likewise, owning a poorly tailored suit and tie don't count either. A slick-haired salesman wearing a cheap suit who works at a cell phone booth in the mall is *not* on is way to the gentry.
-Tip well. 20% isn't a good tip, it's a reasonable tip. A good tip is slipping the bartender a $20 for taking the time to let you sample a couple of wines. If your food was excellent - ravingly excellent, ask your server to see the manager, and ask the manager to speak to the cook so that you can compliment him. Tip the cook. Your tip to the cook or the bartender has nothing to do with what you tip your server. You don't always *have* to tip - bad service shouldn't be rewarded.
-Open doors. Don't rush to doors to open them and make it awkward, but you should naturally tend to reach for the door to open it for someone. And not just your date, or a woman - everyone.
-Dress to Impress. Dinner dates should be business casual at a minimum. What happens behind closed doors in the bedroom, BDSM, chains, whips, gimp suits, needs to be completely separate from your immaculate social presentation.
-Know where you are. You should always be respectful of the culture you are in. When you travel internationally, learn some of the local customs, write down a few important phrases in the native language - try the local cuisine (and I don't mean the tourist traps, like century eggs and fish eyes in China).
-Ask good questions. Not philosophical musings about the universe, but solid questions with a foundation in the conversation of those around you that demonstrate that you not only listen, but also want to more fully understand and share - that you want to vicariously share someone else's experiences through their explanation of it to you.
-Professional and Polite. NEVER lose your temper. A gentleman's worst enemy should never know that they are loathed, because you are friendly, charming, and respectful to everyone.
-Learn new languages. For Americans, our country is a melting pot of diverse nationalities and languages. English, Spanish, Mandarin, Vietnamese, Korean...and if you travel abroad, more Spanish, Portugese, French, German, Italian, Japanese...know how to master a few phrases is many languages.
-Hello.
-Goodbye.
-Please.
-Thank you.
-How much / The bill please.
-You look lovely.

While most people in metropolitan areas speak English, and it is the most universal language we have, the attempt at the most basic demonstration of your WILLINGNESS to learn and embrace a language and culture not your own are key.
-Don't brag. Not about your conquests with women, not about your money or possessions or skills - it's unseemly. Sharing a story about a victory or triumph (obstacles overcome, work triumph) is one thing, but on the bragging front, don't ever.
-Thirst for knowledge.

And finally...know your audience. Spend more time listening than talking, and learn about those around you. Don't use profanity if your company doesn't. Don't bring up subjects for discussion that your company has understanding or interest in (unless, specifically for the purposes of this forum you are PAYING them to be interested).

Being a man doesn't make you a gentleman. I'd daresay that there are few women who actually desire a gentleman, but at least know what the difference is.

[Old-T]

There are definitely classy ladies out there. I don't know if it was a true question, or more a rhetorical one, but either way they do exist. The problem in many cases is that they are somewhat UTR.

I can't speak for Houston, I just do not know that area well, but when you have some time, peruse this web site to see one I would put in that category by any definition: http://www.themidnightrendezvous.com

[SA Angel]

I'm only responding to explain why a woman would not want her face for all to see on the internet.

Discretion. You, the client, want some anonymity correct? How would you feel taking a lovely lady out that your co-worker recognizes from her website?

Also, this is not the end career for many of the ladies you seek. Some work or will seek to work in positions where their reputation is important. The lack of identifying tattoos and face pictures help to separate their private and hobby worlds.

As an aside, have you followed up with the ladies that ask you for references? I do not assume that a man is a newbie no matter what his join date suggests and many other ladies are the same. I ask for references unless they specifically state they are a newbie. In that case, I ask them to submit to my alternate screening. Or is it that you find the alternate screening requirements too invasive? If you can't understand why a women wouldn't want to meet a man anywhere without knowing who they are then I don't have anything further to add.

[TravelingGentleman]

Originally Posted by SA Angel

As an aside, have you followed up with the ladies that ask you for references?

I haven't inquired with any ladies that ask for references, because I have none to offer.

Originally Posted by SA Angel

How would you feel taking a lovely lady out that your co-worker recognizes from her website?

Fair point insofar that you take into consideration that from my limited perspective here, most women aren't willing to provide additional photos. You'll provide an unblurred photo of your nether regions to the public - will you provide an unblurred photo of your face to someone in private?

I daresay that no one cares how your butt looks, aside from grooming. Whether I want to spend time in public with someone has zero to do with your kitty, and everything to do with your face. Looking at your own showcase, you're not smiling in a single photo - even with your face blurred. Which do you think a gentleman cares about?

Originally Posted by SA Angel

...Or is it that you find the alternate screening requirements too invasive? If you can't understand why a women wouldn't want to meet a man anywhere without knowing who they are then I don't have anything further to add.

I'm not acquainted with the seedy underbelly of...things...but no - I *can't* understand why a woman wouldn't want to meet a man at a public venue, surrounded by many strangers, where shenanigans cause problems for everyone. It is just as important for a gentleman to interview and screen a lady as it is for a lady to screen a gentleman.

Again, we're talking about ladies and gentlemen here, not johns and prostitutes. If you can't understand the difference between them, then I don't have anything further to add.

[Veronica Peach]

The Traveling Gentleman presents all valid points, but at the same time, such ladies can be difficult to find in Houston because they don't advertise as often or are UTR. However, they are there. You just need to look for them and be diligent in your exploration.

I wish you luck in your search. Travel companionship is almost always a delicious respite.

Kisses,
VP

[Old-T]

OK, I have been watching where this has been going and I think it is time to comment.

Sir, I think some of what you say is reasonable—no, more than reasonable. There is a definite part of this community that sees things in a similar light as far as the underlying attitude/atmosphere. Longer dates, more interaction at a mental level. Smiles, flirting, sharing some of the real person behind the masks on both sides. Interest in travel, dining, current events, science, art, etc. Someone I would be proud to introduce to friends or family because she is a quality lady. Someone I would find fascinating for hours or days on end. These are all exactly the qualities I seek, and celebrate when I find. Just realize that is not what man

However, I think there are some aspects of what you say that do not quite fit. The biggest underlying concern I have is the issue of building trust over time—or more correctly, your seeming to miss that point. Issues of posting face pictures, asking for references (or doing other screening), or going away with someone for a week’s cruise all deal first and foremost with safety and trust.

You generally have resources available to you to research/screen a lady before contacting her. Reviews, PMs to other gentlemen who have met her. You can get a sense of her personality by her web site—if she has built a good website. As a result, YOU have a reasonable idea if SHE is someone you would be interested in, and feel safe with. (If you have those resources available, and you choose not to use them—then that is on you, and I would say it is foolish).

Generally the lady has no such assurances about you. And sadly, while you might be a complete gentleman, there are men out there who dress in nice suits, can smile in public places, yet are anything but safe in private. In essence you are asking a lady to put her in a very vulnerable position with you based upon your say so and how nice you behave in a public setting. Unfortunately there are far too many stories out there that scream against a lady doing that. And fortunately most ladies have learned from the mistakes of others.

Real examples from ladies I know (not all these happened to them, but no more than once removed, i.e. to someone they personally know):

--A lady agreed to go to Hawaii with a man, all expenses paid and an agreed upon fee that was much less than her regular rate—much less. The first night there was no-sleep, all sex. The next morning he went to his conference, he gave her $200 to go shopping (he had paid for the tickets, but had not paid her yet). While she was out he changed the room keys (she was not on the room reservation), cancelled her return ticket, and left her stranded in Hawaii. Needless to say, he never paid her either, other than the $200.

--Many ladies can tell you about “private” photos, often showing the face they blurred on their web site, winding up on other peoples web sites, or posted on boards similar to this one. For a lady with family, a primary job, or who wants to leave this occupation behind after it has served her purposes, that is a serious risk. Why don’t you use YOUR face picture as your avatar on here? They have the same real issues. I know two ladies who lost custody of their children because “private” phots of their faces linking them to escorting became public against their wishes and by guys who gave all sorts of verbal promises. Not every blackmailer or bragging machismo creep carries a warning sign around their neck.

--I have been to funerals and to visit ladies in ERs because they were beaten by “nice guys”. Typically (but not always) the guy had sweet talked his way past her normal screening—insisting that he was a “safe gentleman”, and she could trust him.

--Lastly, while you are correct there are some ladies who would jump at the chance to take some of the trips you describe, the reality is many ladies, even the well dressed, well spoken, educated, “classy” ones work far less than guys want to believe, make far less, and cannot financially afford to take a week off and travel—even if the travel itself is free.

Personally, had I the resources I would spend a large part of my time traveling with a beautiful, fascinating companion at my side and sharing my room. I have done so on rare occasions, including a two week cruise/trip to Alaska with a very dear lady, as well as several nice weekends. But never on a first date—only after we had become comfortable with each other. Trust is not something to be decreed—trust is earned and built up over time.

I commend you on your view, but I think you are overlooking some of the realities that are necessary to get there. Thank you for bringing up the topic, and I wish you success in finding what you are looking for.

[Guest072015-2]

Originally Posted by Old-T

OK, I have been watching where this has been going and I think it is time to comment.

Sir, I think some of what you say is reasonable—no, more than reasonable. There is a definite part of this community that sees things in a similar light as far as the underlying attitude/atmosphere. Longer dates, more interaction at a mental level. Smiles, flirting, sharing some of the real person behind the masks on both sides. Interest in travel, dining, current events, science, art, etc. Someone I would be proud to introduce to friends or family because she is a quality lady. Someone I would find fascinating for hours or days on end. These are all exactly the qualities I seek, and celebrate when I find. Just realize that is not what man

However, I think there are some aspects of what you say that do not quite fit. The biggest underlying concern I have is the issue of building trust over time—or more correctly, your seeming to miss that point. Issues of posting face pictures, asking for references (or doing other screening), or going away with someone for a week’s cruise all deal first and foremost with safety and trust.

You generally have resources available to you to research/screen a lady before contacting her. Reviews, PMs to other gentlemen who have met her. You can get a sense of her personality by her web site—if she has built a good website. As a result, YOU have a reasonable idea if SHE is someone you would be interested in, and feel safe with. (If you have those resources available, and you choose not to use them—then that is on you, and I would say it is foolish).

Generally the lady has no such assurances about you. And sadly, while you might be a complete gentleman, there are men out there who dress in nice suits, can smile in public places, yet are anything but safe in private. In essence you are asking a lady to put her in a very vulnerable position with you based upon your say so and how nice you behave in a public setting. Unfortunately there are far too many stories out there that scream against a lady doing that. And fortunately most ladies have learned from the mistakes of others.

Real examples from ladies I know (not all these happened to them, but no more than once removed, i.e. to someone they personally know):

--A lady agreed to go to Hawaii with a man, all expenses paid and an agreed upon fee that was much less than her regular rate—much less. The first night there was no-sleep, all sex. The next morning he went to his conference, he gave her $200 to go shopping (he had paid for the tickets, but had not paid her yet). While she was out he changed the room keys (she was not on the room reservation), cancelled her return ticket, and left her stranded in Hawaii. Needless to say, he never paid her either, other than the $200.

--Many ladies can tell you about “private” photos, often showing the face they blurred on their web site, winding up on other peoples web sites, or posted on boards similar to this one. For a lady with family, a primary job, or who wants to leave this occupation behind after it has served her purposes, that is a serious risk. Why don’t you use YOUR face picture as your avatar on here? They have the same real issues. I know two ladies who lost custody of their children because “private” phots of their faces linking them to escorting became public against their wishes and by guys who gave all sorts of verbal promises. Not every blackmailer or bragging machismo creep carries a warning sign around their neck.

--I have been to funerals and to visit ladies in ERs because they were beaten by “nice guys”. Typically (but not always) the guy had sweet talked his way past her normal screening—insisting that he was a “safe gentleman”, and she could trust him.

--Lastly, while you are correct there are some ladies who would jump at the chance to take some of the trips you describe, the reality is many ladies, even the well dressed, well spoken, educated, “classy” ones work far less than guys want to believe, make far less, and cannot financially afford to take a week off and travel—even if the travel itself is free.

Personally, had I the resources I would spend a large part of my time traveling with a beautiful, fascinating companion at my side and sharing my room. I have done so on rare occasions, including a two week cruise/trip to Alaska with a very dear lady, as well as several nice weekends. But never on a first date—only after we had become comfortable with each other. Trust is not something to be decreed—trust is earned and built up over time.

I commend you on your view, but I think you are overlooking some of the realities that are necessary to get there. Thank you for bringing up the topic, and I wish you success in finding what you are looking for.

Wow! Excellent response!

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by Alexie Amor

Wow! Excellent response!

Thank you.

[Guest072015-2]

Originally Posted by Old-T

Thank you.

It is so refresing when someone is able to get their point across without even the slightest bit of antagonism. You must have been a political science major or are a Pisces or a Libra.

"Vote for Old-T"!

[TravelingGentleman]

Old-T:

My gratitude for a thoughtful reply. I feel the need to clarify a few points based on your thoughts.

Originally Posted by Old-T

Personally, had I the resources I would spend a large part of my time traveling with a beautiful, fascinating companion at my side and sharing my room. I have done so on rare occasions, including a two week cruise/trip to Alaska with a very dear lady, as well as several nice weekends. But never on a first date—only after we had become comfortable with each other. Trust is not something to be decreed—trust is earned and built up over time.[/FONT]

Good heavens. The intent of my OP wasn't to suggest international first dates or extended stays with a stranger. I hope it didn't come across that way. Relationships are cultivated, and "Willingness to be a travel companion" means "If the personal and professional relationship between two people reaches a point where they are comfortable spending more than an hour or three together at a time - that it should be an option.

In the ECCIE parlance, I suppose that would mean "A classy provider in a good-standing relationship with a regular (who is also a gentleman) should have "travel companion" as a potential offering.

Originally Posted by Old-T

while you are correct there are some ladies who would jump at the chance to take some of the trips you describe, the reality is many ladies, even the well dressed, well spoken, educated, “classy” ones work far less than guys want to believe, make far less, and cannot financially afford to take a week off and travel—even if the travel itself is free.

Again, we're speaking about ladies and gentlemen here. A gentleman understands that sweeping a lady away for a period of exclusivity deprives her of additional income-earning opportunities, and ensures that she isn't financially distraught for her absence.

Originally Posted by Old-T

A lady agreed to go to Hawaii with a man, all expenses paid and an agreed upon fee that was much less than her regular rate—much less. The first night there was no-sleep, all sex. The next morning he went to his conference, he gave her $200 to go shopping (he had paid for the tickets, but had not paid her yet). While she was out he changed the room keys (she was not on the room reservation), cancelled her return ticket, and left her stranded in Hawaii. Needless to say, he never paid her either, other than the $200.

I hope she went to the local police, reported that her boyfriend/SO stole her money, canceled her flight home, and abandoned her in Hawaii. I would imagine that she had his phone number and e-mail - likely driver's license, home address, and the whole kit. Beyond the legal repercussions of what she could/should have done...the world is full of people who don't believe that karma doesn't balance itself, and could have helped correct the natural balance of things.

Originally Posted by Old-T

--Many ladies can tell you about “private” photos, often showing the face they blurred on their web site, winding up on other peoples web sites, or posted on boards similar to this one. For a lady with family, a primary job, or who wants to leave this occupation behind after it has served her purposes, that is a serious risk. Why don’t you use YOUR face picture as your avatar on here? They have the same real issues. I know two ladies who lost custody of their children because “private” phots of their faces linking them to escorting became public against their wishes and by guys who gave all sorts of verbal promises. Not every blackmailer or bragging machismo creep carries a warning sign around their neck.

Fair observation, and some folks have pointed out in either public or private that this isn't necessarily their end destination career - and don't want easily identifiable pictures floating around forever. I *did* open with the note that I was a complete newbie, and I hadn't considered this. I still think it's important to see whom you're hiring, so I expect a lady and a gentleman can have a chat before meeting for an engagement (Technology has its wonders), or exchange an e-mail with a picture. And again, I must reinforce that we're not talking about provocative or embarrassing pictures. Such conversations and exchanges should be completely devoid of anything remotely hinting at inappropriate behavior to prevent blackmail.

Then again, that's why I advocate a public meeting. There's nothing wrong with requesting no photos be taken.

It's also been explained to me by delightful lady far from me that while she used to have primarily pictures of her face (and she has breathtaking eyes), potential patrons were requesting more pictures of her body, so she accomodated. Given that most income opportunities aren't coming from gentlemen, I understand.

Look - a class act is a rarity on both sides of the fence. Guys are making selections like it's the meat aisle at the store, comparing weight, expiration date, price - how red the cut is, whether the chain of store they're in uses artificial colorant to preserve the freshly cut look or not...at the same time, girls are hiring themselves out because they need money, and for the most part - whoever has it and isn't disgusting can partake.

I'm just trying to remind this community that the words that you are using..."elegant" and "upscale" and "gentleman" and "lady" already have a meaning. Someone trying to commandeer a word doesn't make it theirs.

Gentleman: It means a civilized, educated, well-mannered man. Dictionary Link. It doesn't mean any john who can afford a girl, and doesn't beat them.

Upscale: It means being on the upper end of the social or economic scale. Dictionary Link. Women who advertise that they are upscale, but have a seedy apartment, un-elegant clothing, or (as you put it Old-T) can't afford to take time off of work to travel - while there is nothing wrong with them or their lifestyle, branding anything about it "upscale" is a dishonest misnomer.

Classy: Stylish, admirably smart, and sophisticated. Dictionary Link Etc etc.

When I post a thread titled, "Where are the classy girls at?" it by definition means, "Where are the stylish, admirably smart, and sophisticated girls at?"

At any rate, thanks for keeping the conversation interesting.

[Veronica Peach]

Old-T brings some valid points to the table and reminds me of some experiences in my own life. I'm lucky in that when I was offered my first travel companionship opportunity, we had known each other for about a year and had established an excellent rapport. I was happy to leave Houston for Las Vegas, New Orleans, or wherever he may want my companionship for days at a time.

At the other end, I got to enjoy five hours hours of Wagner's Ring Cycle, only to have a dastardly encounter afterwards (from which I was fortunately able to extricate). In order to find a travel companion, read on the ladies you could possibly be interested in. Take them to dinner. If you look closely enough, I'm sure some will surprise you.

Also, make sure you look where you are likely to find who you're looking for. There are quite a few places (like BP) don't cater to an audience of your taste and caliber.

Kisses,
VP

[CelesteCarter]

Although you do make some valid points, the no references and sending face pics kind of sent me for a loop. But, I would like a bit more clarity... Would you be willing to provide a face pic, your id, and/or business info to verify who you are prior to the woman revealing her identity to you?

At the end of the day, I hide my face because I have a life outside of this that I would like to protect. That involves family, friends, my career, etc. So, sending a gent a picture of myself to ease his concerns without easing my own doesn't sit well with me. Nor is it the sort of protocol that I'm accustomed to. And beyond that my safety, privacy, and security means more to me than any financial gain.

Btw welcome to Eccie, good luck in your search!

Old-T amazing response as always! 😘

[corvette689]

Originally Posted by TravelingGentleman

Old-T:


Upscale: It means being on the upper end of the social or economic scale. Dictionary Link. Women who advertise that they are upscale, but have a seedy apartment, un-elegant clothing, or (as you put it Old-T) can't afford to take time off of work to travel - while there is nothing wrong with them or their lifestyle, branding anything about it "upscale" is a dishonest misnomer.

Classy: Stylish, admirably smart, and sophisticated. Dictionary Link Etc etc.

When I post a thread titled, "Where are the classy girls at?" it by definition means, "Where are the stylish, admirably smart, and sophisticated girls at?"

I ,too, have noticed quite a bit of false "upscale" advertising. Take the time to read their biographies, correspond with them and get a feel for the way they express themselves. Pair this with their reviews,and you can get a better sense of whether a particular provider is , infact, classy. Eccie in general caters to the middle class , however sift through and you will come across some gems. Start by searching providers that are over $350/hr.
Does a higher rate guaranty class? No. But again, that's where the research on your part comes in.

[TravelingGentleman]

Originally Posted by CelesteCarter

Although you do make some valid points, the no references and sending face pics kind of sent me for a loop. But, I would like a bit more clarity... Would you be willing to provide a face pic, your id, and/or business info to verify who you are prior to the woman revealing her identity to you?

This thread is more about ladies and gentleman, and not so much about me individually. For me in particular - a lady could show up at my office complex posing as a contractor or visitor (wearing appropriate business attire) and get a guided tour, inclusive of my office and business card, and a sit down interview in my conference room.

I actually thought that the idea of a pseudo-blind-date at a popular restaurant, arriving and leaving separately would be a bit more tasteful - I'm astonished at how unwelcome the idea is throughout the forums.