Shhh! It's a secret...?

[Guest031715-1]

Originally Posted by Miss Valentina

I do applaud you EFN, I have read a number of your posts and there is no question you are an intelligent and articulate woman with a lot of verve and moxie. I like that about you.

I too am an activist though for reasons I'm certain we can all understand, I choose to fight behind the veil of writing for magazines and blogs and even help drafting legislation on the subject, I write under any number of noms de plume.

I worked as an escort in my younger days to get through grad school in a European country where such activities are legal. I can tell you from experience that should the great USA ever legalize prostitution, you can look forward to a considerable drop in donation as the hobby will be absolutely flooded with providers rendering you unable to command that which you can now due to the risk. Just imagine the volume of clients you must see to make ends meet at $50 a pop. You will be identified as a prostitute by the government. The very government I personally don't trust as far as I can throw, and you exist in a file identified as a prostitute for ever, accessible to any and all who may wish to research you. That never goes away. Taxes. You have to pay them. You will be subject to a quarterly STD test, at a government facility only open at only at certain times, and at a great expense to you. The results of which are posted in that very same government file. For ever.

Though Europe to many of us seems the very model of the zeitgeist of open sexuality, I can assure you the stigma does not escape you. You are subject to the same abject dismissal and leering disgust as one could expect if they were outed here. You are still considered one who has made some very abhorrent choices in her life, and are treated accordingly. Once you are identified as a prostitute in your town, which always happens, you can look forward to never being able to frequent a nice restaurant, being blatantly shunned in boutiques, and sitting at an empty coffee table while the waiter serves everyone but you.

There is only a handful of benefits and those are protection from the police should someone hurt, rob, or rape you, and the easier identification of those who are truly trafficked (studies of which, despite the demagoguery to the opposite, is very rare) as folks are more apt to identify a trafficked adult or child if they know there will not be legal repercussions for them personally. Additionally, as far as the cops are concerned, they must help you, but will do so begrudgingly and with the utmost disdain.

I can assure you that legalizing prostitution does absolutely nothing in the negating of misogyny but perhaps magnifies it. No one is throwing rotten tomatoes and cabbages at you right now, catch my drift? But you can anticipate the metaphorical rotten tomatoes coming at you from places you never thought possible when/if this activity is every legalized.

I am not proud or embarrassed of this job, and I'm certainly not empowered. Does anyone ask the caddy or secretary or lab technician if he/she is empowered? It's just something I do to put food on the table. Though I am most certainly fond of most of my guests, adore them and appreciate them on a deep level I don't romanticize this activity. It is my job to sell the illusion of love, not the realities of it. I am very comfortable operating in the realm of mystique and illusion but I don't fool myself otherwise. You may speak of the deep connections and genuine affection and I most certainly understand that, I understand the desire to make of this something less tawdry, to feel compelled to long for the grand, but the realities of genuine intimacy in this industry seem to be a beautifully sentimentalized version of what we really do.

I greatly appreciate you taking the time to write such a thoughtful reply. Thank you, truly.

I can assure you that legalizing prostitution does absolutely nothing in the negating of misogyny but perhaps magnifies it. No one is throwing rotten tomatoes and cabbages at you right now, catch my drift? But you can anticipate the metaphorical rotten tomatoes coming at you from places you never thought possible when/if this activity is every legalized.
I appreciate your opinion and your information, but I respectfully disagree with you. I am willing to have some vegetables thrown at me while I fight for the other men and women in this business. Other people's opinion of me or what I do does not change my opinion of who I am or what I do.


I see where you are coming from and again, I respect and understand your decision. I think with us, we both just have different ideas and want different things when it comes to our own personal hobby. I will happily be the one to take the scrutiny, the tomatoes, the annoying extra legal steps, the rumors and the death threats. I'm sick of sex trafficking, human trafficking and a country that tells us what we do is wrong while the porn (sex) industry is the BIGGEST INDUSTRY IN THE WORLD while you and others protect yourselves and your families and hopefully cheer me on.

I really appreciate your reply, thanks again for taking the time.

[Guest031715-1]

To those who are unhappy with my activism, don't worry. I received my spankings this morning

[sean rider]

I'm not going to deconstruct any particulars, but just make a general observation...

It's really breathtaking to see the self-loathing betrayed by so many of the responses here.

Of course this is a human rights issue. At the center is the question of personal autonomy and personal ownership of one's own body. If the state can sanction consenting adults for what they decide to do with their bodies, then in a very real sense those individuals do not own their own bodies. And what is it called when you don't own your own body? It's called slavery.

The government punishing sex workers is, in principle, not that different from sex trafficking. In both cases personal autonomy is violated. In both cases a third party uses force to assert ownership of someone else's body.

(No outraged responses for use of the term slave here, OK? Of course black people suffered under plantation-style slavery to such a greater degree that comparison to providers seems absurd. I'm not suggesting an equivalence in pain. I am suggesting that the question as to who controls one's body is, in principle, a human rights question. To the extent you don't have a say as to what choices you have, you don't own your own body. And that is a violation of a right any human being should have.)

[Beagle]

Sorry, but I don't think you can convince most with that line of reasoning, sean.

Not being able to sell own body = don't own their own bodies = slavery?

The reasoning you're using is broad enough to justify every other criminal activity.

[sean rider]

Originally Posted by Beagle

Sorry, but I don't think you can convince most with that line of reasoning, sean.

Not being able to sell own body = don't own their own bodies = slavery?

The reasoning you're using is broad enough to justify every other criminal activity.

I'm not saying you should be able to, say, steal a car. That would involve violating someone else's rights.

I'm saying if it is between consenting adults, but banned ultimately through use of force by some otherwise third party, then that third party is acting as if they own the other person's body. Put another way, they are infringing on someone's natural right to bodily autonomy.

And that makes it a human rights issue.

[JennsLolli]

Originally Posted by sean rider

The government punishing sex workers is, in principle, not that different from sex trafficking. In both cases personal autonomy is violated. In both cases a third party uses force to assert ownership of someone else's body... I am suggesting that the question as to who controls one's body is, in principle, a human rights question. To the extent you don't have a say as to what choices you have, you don't own your own body. And that is a violation of a right any human being should have.

Rarr. (That was a sexy rarr, not a cat fight rarr.)

Do I have the choice to not be an escort? Absolutely... but that's the wrong question. It's like standing outside of an abortion clinic and throwing condoms at the women walking in. (Not my best analogy.) Ummm, yeah. What Sean said.

[Guest031715-1]

Originally Posted by sean rider

I'm not saying you should be able to, say, steal a car. That would involve violating someone else's rights.

I'm saying if it is between consenting adults, but banned ultimately through use of force by some otherwise third party, then that third party is acting as if they own the other person's body. Put another way, they are infringing on someone's natural right to bodily autonomy.

And that makes it a human rights issue.

Sean and JensLolli...THANK YOU.

Spot on, Sean.

There will be another podcast out next week with both Haley Jane and I discussing the same topic (but with another female Austin Comic this time). I'm also going to begin organizing something here in Austin to start spreading more awareness about sex work and decriminalizing it. I am working with the NORML spokesperson to find a non-hobby spokesperson for this group and to also get advice on how to run and organize something like that. Since I am still a working woman, I cannot be in the spotlight like I'd like to be, but I have people that are interested in helping us who can be. Ive spent hours reading over the laws, reading pro/con articles, studying the history, reading discussions, partaking in discussions (with both the real world and hobby world) and I'm just now digging into the activism part of it. I want whatever group this turns into to be on the news (the ones who can be), I want Austin to know that there is a group working to educate and push for a change. I want a movement. Before we can even talk about changing the laws in this country and particularly in this state, we need to change how the general public looks at us. We need them to know the truth of the hobby and the truth of the violence and inequality that has been happening to us for decades (since outlawed in America in 1971).

Anyway, that's all in the works now. If anyone, provider or hobbyist - past or present - wants to be a part of this or is interested in at least staying in the loop - let me know. I'll also be at the Austin Happy Hour next week in case anyone has questions for me or wants to discuss this topic further. "Conversations" on here don't work very well and I tend to get overwhelmingly frustrated with the message board system (facebook spoils me) and how hard headed and sexist some of you men are I also hate cluttering up the thread with my direct replies.

[chelseabean]

Originally Posted by sean rider

I'm not going to deconstruct any particulars, but just make a general observation...

It's really breathtaking to see the self-loathing betrayed by so many of the responses here.

Amen, brutha

Of course this is a human rights issue. At the center is the question of personal autonomy and personal ownership of one's own body. If the state can sanction consenting adults for what they decide to do with their bodies, then in a very real sense those individuals do not own their own bodies. And what is it called when you don't own your own body? It's called slavery.

The government punishing sex workers is, in principle, not that different from sex trafficking. In both cases personal autonomy is violated. In both cases a third party uses force to assert ownership of someone else's body.

I was waiting to comment as I have been out of town, but thank you for saving my faith in the average, or not so average hobbyist. And Yesssss!!! There is a very easy argument to make to see this as a civil right/woman/workers rights issue. A woman's body is a political space. It always has been. We have to fight for our reproductive rights, and I really do believe that the laws against prostitution are just codified patriarchal fear, ie, it makes no rational sense. And when things don't make sense like it, it's usually about control and ownership. There's a fine line in the whole victimization game.

I'm glad someone finally went for the activist narrative, which is what Kate did and kudos for her for having the guts. Using the age card is cheap. Maybe she has a lot to lose, maybe she doesn't, but the point is one doesn't engage in activism because one things there will be NO consequences, people do it because the perceived value of what they are doing is worth those consequences. If you see this in terms of a woman's rights or worker's rights issue, then what she did is indeed activism. If you see it in terms of just "staining the sheets" perhaps not.

(No outraged responses for use of the term slave here, OK? Of course black people suffered under plantation-style slavery to such a greater degree that comparison to providers seems absurd. I'm not suggesting an equivalence in pain. I am suggesting that the question as to who controls one's body is, in principle, a human rights question. To the extent you don't have a say as to what choices you have, you don't own your own body. And that is a violation of a right any human being should have.)

Thank you! Also, just in response to some above comments, rights don't come from a burning bush. They are not facts, nor objective truths. They are DEFINED by human beings. I find it odd that some here would assume that EFN's defining the legalization of the profession a "right" to be her opinion and their defining it not to be a "right" a fact. All rights are opinions that have been agreed upon by enough people.


At the very least, thank you EFN for starting a conversation that is both pertinent and thought provoking for the community. Beats the hell out of Hookers are so dumb and terrible at their jobs that....." threads. I fully understand that since I said that one will pop up like magic. Awesome.

[Loxly]

One of the activities at the Forbidden Film Fest is a panel discussion. "Feminism and Sexuality and Texas". Check the links I posted in the Sandbox.

[ck1942]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Prostitution in Canada is legal as there are no laws prohibiting the exchange of sex for money. On the 20th December 2013, the Supreme Court of Canada found the laws prohibiting brothels, public communication for the purpose of prostitution, and living on the profits of prostitution to be unconstitutional. The ruling gives the Canadian parliament 12 months to rewrite the prostitution laws; in the meantime, anti-prostitution laws will continue to be enforced.[1]

While the prohibition of the activities surrounding the sex trade makes it difficult to practice prostitution without breaking any law, the act of exchanging sex for money has never been illegal in Canada, a situation which has created and continues to create confusion and controversy.

Here is the full link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Canada

Definitely some very thought-provoking discussion in this thread.

However, the social event rules do prohibit open discussion of the hobby so that event attendees both veteran and novice may feel comfortable throughout the event.

[Guest031715-1]

Originally Posted by ck1942

Here is the full link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Canada

Definitely some very thought-provoking discussion in this thread.

However, the social event rules do prohibit open discussion of the hobby so that event attendees both veteran and novice may feel comfortable throughout the event.

Actually CK, it just prohibits "illegal hobby chatter," but it's good you bring that up.

Feel free to approach, meet and greet me as well as ask about the activism as long as you keep these guidelines in mind:

- If you have "issues" with folks elsewhere, like on a review board, if you are invited to attend an M&G, you are expected to leave ALL issues outside the venue and behave with respect and courtesy for all who attend.

- No illegal hobby chatter.

If you have an "issue" with what I'm doing, it's probably not best for you to start a convo about it with me at a M&G, but if you'd like more (discrete) info on how to be a part of it, what it's all about or what you can do to help, please feel free to ask...DISCRETELY. "Hey what's the deal with that prostitute activism shiz," is not the way to go about asking

[Guest031715-1]

Originally Posted by chelseabean

Thank you! Also, just in response to some above comments, rights don't come from a burning bush. They are not facts, nor objective truths. They are DEFINED by human beings. I find it odd that some here would assume that EFN's defining the legalization of the profession a "right" to be her opinion and their defining it not to be a "right" a fact. All rights are opinions that have been agreed upon by enough people.


At the very least, thank you EFN for starting a conversation that is both pertinent and thought provoking for the community. Beats the hell out of Hookers are so dumb and terrible at their jobs that....." threads. I fully understand that since I said that one will pop up like magic. Awesome.

BLESS YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(and no I did NOT hear a sneeze)

Thank you for the support and the back up. It may have brought a tear or two to my dumb little hooker eye

[johnnytx39]

Rule #1: Be active for the long haul. Rule #2: Wise men say, only fools rush in.

Originally Posted by Miss Valentina

I can assure you that legalizing prostitution does absolutely nothing in the negating of misogyny but perhaps magnifies it. No one is throwing rotten tomatoes and cabbages at you right now, catch my drift? But you can anticipate the metaphorical rotten tomatoes coming at you from places you never thought possible when/if this activity is every legalized.

Miss Valentina brings an important fact, but I think she draws the wrong inference.

Legalization, de jure or de facto, is just one step. Changing peoples’ attitudes is a much more important step, and a much slower step. Someone mentioned Stonewall. Stonewall was a brilliant spark. That spark would have died without twenty years of preparation and forty years of follow-up. 60 years: that’s change at warp speed.

If I say Napoleon, you may see a cartoon character. You should also see a great leader of men. Among the martial virtues, he recognized courage, but he placed perseverance foremost. EFN, work on patience and perseverance before courage. Without them, the spark of courage flickers out.

[Guest021716-4]

Originally Posted by FloridaShark

Ah, there's the crux isn't it? That's the toxic mentality in a nutshell. But let's take things one step at a time. Lincoln freed the slaves but it took another 150 years before the idea of racial equality was seriously debated. The first step is decriminalization. Someone has to push for that. I'm willing to do my part.

I dislike the argument that decriminalization is pointless because it won't change the social stigma. That isn't the point. The point is to stop hurting sex workers/providers by making their activities a criminal offense. The point is to stop making it more physically dangerous than it has to be. Then work on the health care apparatus to make it less of a sex shaming clusterfuck.

More provides are out to their friends and families than you might think. And I still think it's absurdly condescending to tell a provider that wants to live openly that it's "too risky for her and her family". Fuck that. Nobody means that. What do you care? Some people just enjoy talking down. Or they really believe providers are dirty bitches who deserve what they get.

[Toyz]

(staff edit at OP's request; ztonk)