"TS" Providers and ECCIE Gentlemen (and I'm using that term very loosely. Some are more like middle-school boys.)

[Arverni]

Not my opinions - they're the opinions of science. I would say if you have a Y chromosome in there and male genitalia and the skeletal features of a male thn you are probably male.

We don't get to call ourselves whatever we wish - well you can but you can't expect people to override scientific facts for your benefit.

I'm not trying to be mean here. I fully support gay rights including marriage - we just disagree on a definition.

[Annie Calhoun]

I have to say, I'm pleasantly surprised by the majority of the comments here. Turns out our Louisiana ECCIE guys are, by and large, pretty accepting!

Originally Posted by muny4huny

It is not a male or female issue but a masculine or feminine issue. I am turned on by all things feminine which makes me heterosexual. While it seems some here wish to label people based on who they are with and not what they do, I think that is a complete cop out.
...
I find no turn on by anything masculine, and 100% turn on by all things feminine.

You know, Muny...despite the...uh...explicitness of your post, I think we're in agreement. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that, as a heterosexual guy, you would much prefer say, Bailey Jay, a woman who has a penis, to Buck Angel, a man who has a vagina (though he also has a phallus as a result of hormone therapy). **Don't worry, those are just Wikipedia links. Not that ECCIE is safe for work or anything, lol.

However, I would disagree with your assertion that taking a strap-on from a girl makes a man gay. When I strap on a bright purple phallus, it doesn't automatically make me a man! I'm still a girl, which means the guy who's taking that phallus like a champ is still hetero.

Originally Posted by rex111999

I think Muny just endorsed the topic of the thread in a positive way. I think.

LOL I think so! I was kind of surprised. But then again, I don't really know Muny...

Originally Posted by causewaycommuter

The fact that we participate in the hobby already puts us on the fringe of society, so its not like any of us have any room to cast stones. Just sayin.

Right. And I think we should be supporting each other on principle--no matter what you like, we're all doing something that makes us "outsiders" to the mainstream. The media, lots of religious groups, and most non-hobbying folk make us out to be evil degenerates, and they blame us for tons of problems that we have nothing to do with. We get enough judgement and hate from outsiders; we don't need it from each other.

Originally Posted by here4now

I'm kinda curious how you can not like something you have never tried? I believe someone not too far above me just made that statement. You know the saying, "If you don't have something good to say, don't say anything at all." In the case of reviews such as these, that would be excellent advice to follow. I do find it interesting how some will jump in and have to express their masculinity and how they are not and never will be gay or bi when it has absolutely nothing to do with the review at all. What is the motivation to have to tell the world that information? You are not gay or bi, so? Does shouting out the fact that you are strictly hetero make you more attractive, feel better about yourself? One thing is for sure, and that is that it is obvious some people do not understand transsexuality and, rather than educate themselves about it, would rather make fun of it or profess to let others know how much it disgusts them. I guess those people are considered absolutely flawless to the rest of the world and they want to be sure that everyone knows it. Human sexuality is complex. I believe it was Kristi who mentioned black and white and how a gray world must confuse the hell out of some people (not those exact words) but you get the point. I guess the bottom line is, to me, live and let live. No one is forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to and to make snide and nasty remarks because someone doesn't fit into your idea of the perfect person is just sad. And FYI, their are people out there who don't believe you are perfect either.

You know, I tried to pick out something in here to respond to specifically, but I can't, because I agree with every damn word.

Originally Posted by Arverni

A homosexual experience has NEVER been defined by an "oriface". Many Gay men do not engage in anal sex. "Who's on top" is irrelvent.

YES! Exactly!

Originally Posted by Arverni

I base my opinions on science - not feelings. I will not "redefine" established scientific concepts simply because those established concepts hurt people's feelings.

Well then, you probably shouldn't be using Wikipedia to support your point, since it's not exactly known for its accuracy re: science, lol.

I understand your point, though. But I think your premise is faulty.

Gender does not necessarily correspond with genitalia. Gender is a pretty complicated concept, actually, and it encompasses social/cultural factors just as much as biological ones. I mean, if you like Wikipedia (and even though it has its faults, I do), check out the Wikipedia article for Gender. If it were as simple as "Boys have penises and girls have vaginas, end of story," that article would be much, much shorter.

Nor does sex, for that matter. If we're talking strictly in biological distinctions, XX is Female and XY is male. But sometimes genotype (the actual genetic sex) and phenotype (the physical, observable characteristics of the body that we read as "female" and "male") don't match up the way we expect them to. So, sometimes people who have XX chromosomes don't have vaginas. And sometimes people who have XY chromosomes don't have penises. And then there are people who are born with an extra chromosome, like people who are XXY or XYY. So that complicates matters even further. Mother Nature is not known for her reliability or simplicity, haha.

Usually, a person's gender is determined by phenotype (what their body looks like) at birth, but sometimes that doesn't match up with other aspects of who they are, either biologically or physically or mentally. And that doesn't mean that someone who has a penis and XY chromosomes can't be a woman mentally--and that's not unscientific. Remember, the human brain isn't just a mushy mass of feelings; it's perhaps the most complex thing science has discovered so far.

I have a general rule I use to make sense of this stuff that (I think) makes it pretty easy: It's not the parts; it's the person. It hasn't steered me wrong yet

Also, I need to add that the only person here (in this thread) who's really an expert on this stuff is TSKrystiKakes, so when in doubt, we should probably just listen to what she says and take her word for it, since she's, ya know, living it and all.

[Annie Calhoun]

Sorry, I didn't see your comment until after I posted my last one. It looks like you had already addressed a lot of the things I said.

Originally Posted by TSKrystiKakes

1. Sex & Gender are to different things, MY sex is male, my gender is female

2. I was born XXY for where does that put me, in your views? ( Not that I am interested in your opinion)

3. Once again, this is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but others opinions greatly vary,

4. And as far as "wiki" lol @ that, anyone can write or define anything they want on there anyway they want to state it, for that reason it isn't even accepted as a valued reference in college

5. As far as to why TS are allowed here, is because there is GREAT levels of interest in terms of hobbyist having this particular fetish, just because u don't, doesn't mean the rest don't, ITS NOT GAY, ITS A FETISH.....

[gimme_that]

Y'all can disagree with the fact that a guy who likes dildos and strap ons taken to him ain't gayish all you want.....


But trust if you have an intimate conversation in most situations with your homegirls who are not affliated in the hobby....they will no doubt tell you your man is suspect...and or gay.

Same with dudes......you don't go hanging out at a bar or fishingg with your pal frank....and discuss how your wife really went to town on your asshole with her strap on. Nope they keep it on the downlow.

Even an innocent finger swip or prostate massage.......talk to your civilian girlfriend and homebois and see what they say. Its suspect is all I'm saying.

Its just how the majority of people feel about it. Maybe not here. I mean dallas said 90 percent of her clientele like a finger up the pooper......they must have "forgot" to put it in their review. Or they were to embarrassed to admit they like pressure in their backside. They should be more open......(no pun intended)

[disilene]

Originally Posted by gimme_that

Y'all can disagree with the fact that a guy who likes dildos and strap ons taken to him ain't gayish all you want.....


But trust if you have an intimate conversation in most situations with your homegirls who are not affliated in the hobby....they will no doubt tell you your man is suspect...and or gay.

Same with dudes......you don't go hanging out at a bar or fishingg with your pal frank....and discuss how your wife really went to town on your asshole with her strap on. Nope they keep it on the downlow.

Even an innocent finger swip or prostate massage.......talk to your civilian girlfriend and homebois and see what they say. Its suspect is all I'm saying.

Its just how the majority of people feel about it. Maybe not here. I mean dallas said 90 percent of her clientele like a finger up the pooper......they must have "forgot" to put it in their review. Or they were to embarrassed to admit they like pressure in their backside. They should be more open......(no pun intended)

I think you just posted an argument that does not support your position.

You say that your homeboys aren't talking about any backdoor explorations they may have had. Doesn't mean they haven't tried it, but they haven't told you about it. But really, when guys get together...honesty in sex, fishing, and other ego massaging stories.....honesty really isn't a priority. We usually are not honest with our friends because we don't want to be judged by them. Probably why people are way way more honest about things on this board...it is anonymous.

I actually know people not in the hobby who are straight (they are rednecks that are VERY homophobic) that like the dildos and anal play. You call them gay.....no one would probably ever find your body....I am talking "Wrong turn" type people, that movie maybe too old for the reference to be wildly known.


In Brazil it is acceptable to nail any ass, but you are considered gay if you get nailed in the ass.

In ancient Rome and Greece it was similar. Just because there is a social norm convention in the US.....doesn't mean that it is scientific. It is just a social norm. You go to another country and it is totally different.


Most people probably know I saw a TS. I wrote a review.

I would agree with the fem vs. Masculine thing. We all know woman who have turned us off by their actions/looks.


Does it make you gay that you don't want to fuck her? Living in New Orleans we have all probably been walking down a street admiring a set of legs....just to find out, it wasn't a woman...but from the rear there was no indication of it not being a female.

If you never try something...then you don't know that you don't like it.

They say in prison that it doesn't matter, a warm tight hole is, well, a warm tight hole. I don't agree with that. Pheromones and the other senses are all entwined in our sexuality. Guys are more visual, so if it looks masculine (male or female) you likely won't get any positive sexual vibes. But if it is a fem TS and you really can't tell it is a TS, without her telling you....I bet a lot of guys who loudly and verbosely proclaim their heterosexuality might get a shock.


This is New Orleans, you never know if that hot girl you talked to at the bar was packing or not.

[muny4huny]

Originally Posted by Arverni

I'm not trying to be mean here. I fully support gay rights including marriage - we just disagree on a definition.

See that is where I do disagree, gay marriage is quite frankly retarded. Marriage in itself is a religious institution label placed on a function for a man and a woman many eons ago. Gay people wanting to "use" or "borrow" the same title is simply childish crap. Why are they not marching and protesting over being able to use the label "straight" or marching over using the term "skinhead". I am not marching on DC to use the label Gay to describe myself, that is all theirs. It would be the same thing. Why don't they simply crate their own label and go with it? It is no longer about rights, it is getting damn close to psychotic behavior. Can you imagine Obama marching on Washington because not enough people think he is black and saying "damnit I wanna be called a Ni**er the same as all the other black folk!" There is this other book written by this moron Adolph Hitler and I don't see many gays running around wanting to take on some of the labels in that book. It is like a 4yr old, sees his 4yr old friend playing with a toy, he wants to play with the same toy not the one he already has. Childish bullshit.
In the 50's a lesbian convinced a bunch of hetero housewives to fight for equal rights, the housewives didn't gain a damn thing, they had husbands to vote and work and provide for them. Head Lezbo Susan B Anthony didn't have a man to get her those benefits so she suckered a bunch of housewives into getting her the same ability without having to have a man. What benefit has it brought? Well lets see, In 1935 if a man hit a woman 10 guys got together and fucked him up. Today a man hits a woman and 6 out of 10 guys say the bitch probably deserved it. Yay for Equal Rights!
Who in the hell would want the "equal rights" of an overworked, underpaid, overtaxed white man?? The same type of people who would want the marriage label that today has crap value and respect and is surrounded by a ridiculous divorce rate. Someone who just wants attention, like a 4yr old.

[DallasRain]

quote-----EDIT: Having said all that - my ass is off limits to everyone - including female providers. Write that down. Leave my ass alone and I will leave yours alone!

DAMMIT---lol

[Arverni]

It's not really a topic that can be debated ... emotions run too high. All I will say is that I have certain "definitions" and their scientifically based. I will also say that I don't think any human is inherently "superior" to another based on sexual orientation. I fully support the equal treatment of all people.

Good luck.

[here4now]

I don't think I have seen a word mentioned here about ladies who enjoy anal play. Where do they fit in to those who find anal play among men so abhorrent? Do women have the practice cornered all to themselves and are allowed to do such things while men cannot, otherwise they must be gay? Anal stimulation can be enjoyable to both sexes. It may not be for everyone male or female (just ask my wife, dammit). But it seems pretty hypocritical to label someone for doing something they find enjoyable while doing absolutely nothing to you.

[TSKrystiKakes]

Originally Posted by Arverni

Not my opinions - they're the opinions of science. I would say if you have a Y chromosome in there and male genitalia and the skeletal features of a male thn you are probably male.

We don't get to call ourselves whatever we wish - well you can but you can't expect people to override scientific facts for your benefit.

I'm not trying to be mean here. I fully support gay rights including marriage - we just disagree on a definition.

Well for me I do, like I said before, my gender is female, my sex is male, I live as a woman, and for me that is enough. I fully understand how the majority of the world views and label's myself and other TS, fact is I deal with it on a daily basis from narrow minded people. But for me, my views are all that count. Its something we as TS deal with our whole lives, and the opinions of fore mentioned peoples will never change that. Get used to US we aren't going anywhere, educate yourselves, and learn to accept. We are people too, don't fear and lash out from not understanding as it is normal with human nature. I don't feel anyone has lashed out here but often it does happen, so its a statement in general. While everyone one has different views and opinions, some need to take a closer look at both sides of their own opinions as well as others.

[rex111999]

I like women. Everything about a woman can be a turn on to me in some way or another. From the top of their heads to the end of their toes, I find everything about a woman attractive. I just want to lick them all over.
I don't have any similar feeling towards a man. I'll hang out with 'em, drink with 'em, whatever, but sexually... not a chance.
That said, I'll take a good prostate massage from a woman any day of the week. (Especially if she lets me lick her all over.) Will I shout that from the rooftops? No. But I am pretty quiet about my sex life, it isn't anyone else's business.

A TS? Not my fetish. Are there some hot ones? Yep. Make me want to lick them all over? No.

[Annie Calhoun]

Originally Posted by Arverni

Not my opinions - they're the opinions of science. I would say if you have a Y chromosome in there and male genitalia and the skeletal features of a male thn you are probably male.

We don't get to call ourselves whatever we wish - well you can but you can't expect people to override scientific facts for your benefit.

I'm not trying to be mean here. I fully support gay rights including marriage - we just disagree on a definition.

With all due respect, these are your opinions, and they are most certainly not the "opinions of science."

This is from an interview with a scientist in the field of genetics, sex, and gender (Eric Vilain, MD, PhD, an assistant professor of Human Genetics at UCLA):

"...there is more than a genetic definition of sex. In fact, there [are] many ways to define sex and each one of them [is] just as equally important as the other; genetic sex being one important one and that's whether you're XX or XY.

But you can look at [it] with a different perspective which is the makeup of the gonads, whether they're testes or ovaries and that's a completely different perspective on it. We know there are individuals who have ovaries yet they can be XY and conversely you can have testes and be XX. So they're two independent primaries.

There is a third way of looking at this, which is what we call the "phenotypic sex" and that is probably the most common sense definition of sex and that's the appearance of the external genitalia. Penis, you're male. Vagina, you're a female. Again this definition may be discordant with the genetic makeup and the endocrine or gonad makeup.

And finally, another way of looking at it is gender identity. It's one's own perception of one's sex and that's how people feel like the way they are, either male or female. This can be completely discordant with the rest. You can have individuals who are fully masculinized, have a penis, have two testicles, they're XY, they have levels of testosterone of the majority of males, yet they feel like they belong to the [female] body and in their mind they are female. These four perspectives are very important as a whole to define what sex is.

I should add that there is a fifth perspective which is the legal perspective and that's what's decided at birth, in the birth certificate. You're either male or female and this can be also discordant with the rest of the other perspectives. "

[runkle]

Everyone seems to be focusing on the issue of giving/taking it in the ass. I dont think anal is the issue that garnered the reaction in the recent review. Hell, everyone has read reviews where guys openly talk about doing anal with a provider, and no one thinks they are gay for it. What is the difference between sticking your penis in a female ass versus a male ass? Technically speaking....there is no difference. But in reality there is HUGE difference. Then there are those that write about prostate massages, either fingers, vibrators, or strap on play. Maybe not as popular for those to openly admit it when it occurs, but it still occurs with little to no repercussions.

I say all of this to get to the comment that I believe got most guys "gay-dar" active and that which they (we) cant comprehend without the being gay comparison. The review stated for activities taken place, MUTUAL BBBJ. To most, they dont care what you stick up your bum, but you suck a dick, youre a cocksucker for life. Is it right? Is it fair? Probably not, but thats the perception for any red blooded American male. You want gay with two hot chicks licking eat others coochies and most everyone will be accepting of that as a "good" gay, but a dick is a dick is a dick. And when two dicks get together, that responded to as "bad" gay. Doesnt matter if that dick is attached to nice pair or tits and long flowing hair, put two dicks together and the immature 12 yr old in all guys is going to come out and make jokes. I dont make the rules, but it is what it is.

[TSKrystiKakes]

Originally Posted by runkle

Everyone seems to be focusing on the issue of giving/taking it in the ass. I dont think anal is the issue that garnered the reaction in the recent review. Hell, everyone has read reviews where guys openly talk about doing anal with a provider, and no one thinks they are gay for it. What is the difference between sticking your penis in a female ass versus a male ass? Technically speaking....there is no difference. But in reality there is HUGE difference. Then there are those that write about prostate massages, either fingers, vibrators, or strap on play. Maybe not as popular for those to openly admit it when it occurs, but it still occurs with little to no repercussions.

I say all of this to get to the comment that I believe got most guys "gay-dar" active and that which they (we) cant comprehend without the being gay comparison. The review stated for activities taken place, MUTUAL BBBJ. To most, they dont care what you stick up your bum, but you suck a dick, youre a cocksucker for life. Is it right? Is it fair? Probably not, but thats the perception for any red blooded American male. You want gay with two hot chicks licking eat others coochies and most everyone will be accepting of that as a "good" gay, but a dick is a dick is a dick. And when two dicks get together, that responded to as "bad" gay. Doesnt matter if that dick is attached to nice pair or tits and long flowing hair, put two dicks together and the immature 12 yr old in all guys is going to come out and make jokes. I dont make the rules, but it is what it is.

well said

P.S. LOVE your avatar runkle!!

[Nicolet]

I just read a thread elsewhere on the board of a female provider encountering a transgendered female and feeling an unusual attraction to her. Not knowing at the time she was transgendered, she somehow felt drawn to her. Here is the thread that I was referring to, http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?t=634780

I think having a meeting like that would be amazing!