Another reason why I hate historians

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Carl

History is not a science or a pseudo-science.

And is based for the most part on the "eyes of the beholder" and "unreliable hearsay," but short of a series of first hand accounts, which are also biased and from a questionalble perspective, we are left with little else to rely upon. Which is the "argument" for a reliance on a variety of sources to isolate the common information that is also consistent with accounts of others who would normally have a potential to distort or "edit" reality in order to accomplish their personal gain.

[theaustinescorts]

Oh and just one other thing....

Adolf Hitler survived the war and was assisted by the CIA in living in Argentina until the FBI verified his presence there, so he was moved to Indonesia where he lived until his death in 1970.

That's how far the CIA went in order to vex the Soviets and ally themselves with anti-communists and facists worldwide...particularly in Indonesia which had a German-founded National Socialist apperatus since 1930.

The facts about this are already starting to leak out....

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

Oh and just one other thing....

Adolf Hitler survived the war and was assisted by the CIA in living in Argentina until the FBI verified his presence there, so he was moved to Indonesia where he lived until his death in 1970.

That's how far the CIA went in order to vex the Soviets and ally themselves with anti-communists and facists worldwide...particularly in Indonesia which had a German-founded National Socialist apperatus since 1930.

The facts about this are already starting to leak out....

CIA!?! 1930s!?!?! Perhaps you should question the reliability of your sources, TAE.

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

CIA!?! 1930s!?!?! Perhaps you should question the reliability of your sources, TAE.

The Indonesian National Socialist party was formed in 1929.

The alliance between German National Socialists and the US government involved US Army Intelligence until after 1948, when all of these programs were transferred to the two bureaus doing civilian intelligence work after the National Security Act of 1947 - the Office of Policy Coordination and the Central Intelligence Agency.

The CIA was involved with the Nazis in collecting secret intelligence.

The OPC was involved with the Nazis in covert action.

In 1952 Director of Walter Bedell Smith merged the OPC into CIA.

CIA and OPC jointly operated the ratline until all valued Nazis had been rescued, and thereafter their mission was to assist them in hiding, whether they were settled in the US or in Argentina or Paraguay. However in the 1960s problems with the FBI caused many of them, such as Hitler himself, to be moved to Indonesia after the Suharto coup.

[Jackie S]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

Oh and just one other thing....

Adolf Hitler survived the war and was assisted by the CIA in living in Argentina until the FBI verified his presence there, so he was moved to Indonesia where he lived until his death in 1970.

That's how far the CIA went in order to vex the Soviets and ally themselves with anti-communists and facists worldwide...particularly in Indonesia which had a German-founded National Socialist apperatus since 1930.

The facts about this are already starting to leak out....

This post is supposed to be totally tongue in cheek, I assume. Sort of a way to show how absolutly absurd some people can be.

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

This post is supposed to be totally tongue in cheek, I assume. Sort of a way to show how absolutly absurd some people can be.

Not at all.

Since 2009 it's now well known among all informed historians that the Russians never had Hitler's remains.

No one has them.

He never died in Berlin.

[Jackie S]

Good Lord. Your serious!!

[theaustinescorts]

The remains which the Russians claimed were of Hitler were tested in 2009 by the Chief pathologist of the state of Connecticut and were found to be that of a woman.

Examination of the Soviet archives underline that the Soviet leadership came up with the story of Hitler dying in Berlin as a hoax, and none of the fourty or so witnesses with Hitler in his bunker saw him dead except for two, and they've now been discredited.

If you research the CIA operation of the "ratline" escape program for Nazis you'll see there is no controversy about it.

There's no controversy about any of it anymore frankly.

[LordBeaverbrook]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

Good Lord. Your serious!!

Yep, she's serious. IBH is right (good call), no CIA in 1930s. The CIA was only formed in 1947 and OSS was folded into that. OSS was military intelligence (Julia Child work in OSS).

Sounds like you are a bit of a self-hater if you hate historians. History is only an improved version (sometimes) of story-telling, probably the oldest of human arts so in one way or another we are all historians unless we are mute and can't write. Carl is correct, it is one of the liberal arts, but there is a practice or discipline called historiography where the practice of history is disciplined by best practices (kind of like writing software, which is not engineering or science). Historiography was only taught to me directly the second time around for a degree, but it helps in increasing the objectivity and balance in writing history if that is what the author's intent is in the first place.

Really good history gives you the facts from primary and secondary sources so you can form opinions and then should let you know when it is doing analysis. I find it quite informative and useful to read a history book written by someone who has devoted years of their life and tons of hard work to understanding a topic or period even if I don't agree with their analysis and conclusions. I usually try to read two or three books from different perspectives and also some articles or even Wikipedia so I'm conversant with basic facts and controversies around that topic.

No need to hate, be selective, but read several viewpoints and sometimes you can access and check the primary or secondary sources yourself. In fact History has become much better and more fascinating over the last 20 or 30 years because it has taken an interdisciplinary approach of blending in scientific (chemical, engineering, geological, archeological, etc..), psychological, medical, architectural and even culinary or fine arts sources to round out the historical picture of a time, place, event or person. I find the metamorphosis amazing and wonderful.

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by austxjr

Yep, she's serious. IBH is right (good call), no CIA in 1930s. The CIA was only formed in 1947 and OSS was folded into that. OSS was military intelligence (Julia Child work in OSS).

This is incorrect. The OSS was not military intelligence, and it wasn't folded into CIA.

The OSS was a civilian covert action service which conducted no intelligence gathering whatsoever. It's only mission was to use covert means to conduct paramilitary operations to support the war.

After the war the OSS was completely disbanded.

Central Intelligence was created within the White House before 1947 to collate data from the military intel services and State Department, and was formalized into the "Statutory Central Intelligence Agency" by the National Security Act of 1947. Under that CIA was only collating other agencies' data.

But after the Greece-Turkish crisis of 1947 a covert action/paramilitary/psych warfare group was created as the Office of Policy Coordination, the OPC. It was staffed largely by former OSS who left there civilian jobs to go back into government work.

OPC was funded by the State Department and worked for the National Security Council and administered by CIA.

Then CIA started conducting it's own secret intelligence gathering through espionage to add to the military's intel it was collating.

Then the Korean War happened in June 1850 and the constant intelligence failures relating to that changed everything.

Walter Bedell Smith was made the Director of Central Intelligence, and he brought the OPC into the CIA fully.

Since that time CIA hasn't been collating other agencies data. Since 1952 CIA has been about one thing....covert action, with scant attention being paid to gathering of intelligence. Yes there is something called the Directorate of Intelligence, and they prepare the President's Daily Brief, but that's a red-headed stepchild within the agency. Robert Gates spent his career in the East Europe/Soviet Division of the DOI. According to him as late as 1988 the Soviet Union still had a good hundred years left to go, good call DOI.

In 1952 the OPC was dissolved and folded into the Directorate for Plans in CIA.

Within CIA during the cold war the chief position was the Deputy Director for Plans, the DDP, who oversaw all covert action. Some people however used to erroneously add the term "action," and refer to the DDP as the "Deputy Director/Plans of Action," which was never his official title.

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

Oh and just one other thing....

Adolf Hitler survived the war and was assisted by the CIA in living in Argentina until the FBI verified his presence there, so he was moved to Indonesia where he lived until his death in 1970.

That's how far the CIA went in order to vex the Soviets and ally themselves with anti-communists and facists worldwide...particularly in Indonesia which had a German-founded National Socialist apperatus since 1930.

The facts about this are already starting to leak out....

Wrong he was smuggled out of Argentina by Elvis in 1990.

[essence]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

Good Lord. Your serious!!

Unfortunately he/she is!

I seem to remember from old posts that he/she thinks all Norwegian freedom fighters during the war were only doing it to fight communist attacks on Norway. Laughable.

He/she also said Norwegians generally welcomed the friendly Nazi invasion of their country.

I also seem to remember he/she thinks Churchill/Roosevelt et al were no better than Hitler/Stalin et al.

He/she also seems to have some idea of setting up a brothel in Norway.

He/she makes teapots seem almost sane.

OK, here we go, take a look at his sober analysis and great intellect here (towards the end)

http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?t=508631

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by essence

Unfortunately he/she is!

I seem to remember from old posts that he/she thinks all Norwegian freedom fighters during the war were only doing it to fight communist attacks on Norway. Laughable.

He/she also said Norwegians generally welcomed the friendly Nazi invasion of their country.

I also seem to remember he/she thinks Churchill/Roosevelt et al were no better than Hitler/Stalin et al.

He/she also seems to have some idea of setting up a brothel in Norway.

He/she makes teapots seem almost sane.

OK, here we go, take a look at his sober analysis and great intellect here (towards the end)

http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?t=508631

Uh, I hate to repeat myself about Norway but my grandfather's first cousin was the Prime Minister of Norway who was thrown out by the Nazis. Frankly I think I know more about Norway's role in the war than anyone else on these boards.

For sake of repeatition I will state again, the German occupation of Norway occured because the British were illegally basing in Norway AGAINST the will of the Norwegians. The British sent hundreds of provacateurs into Norway, sent their naval vessels into our ports uninvited, and then sent a task force to Narvik to invade us when the Germans pre-empted. Furthermore you should be reminded that the British invaded neutral Iceland on May 10, 1940 for the same reasons that they were attempting to invade Norway. The German occupation of Norway was benign, and tens of thousands of Norwegians volunteered to fight with the Germans in several SS Divisions dedicated to fighting Stalin. Several members of my family who were members of the Labor Party fought with the Nazis, not against them, and I still have their SS Division rings, etc....[SS Nordland Division, SS Viking Division]. THE ONLY NORWEGIANS WHO RESISTED GERMAN OCCUPATION WERE STALINIST COMMUNISTS. Of that there is no dispute. For that matter the entire French resistance were communists, as were the resistance in Holland and Belgium.

As for Hitler surviving the war there is no longer any dispute either since the Russian remains of him have now been proven to be a hoax.

Watch it and weap!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=abZKF3bvHnY

[JD Barleycorn]

Okay, I have the time to watch the video. I have some serious reservations about having total belief in what the Russians say about anything. My biggest concern is that Hitler was deathly afraid of being captured by the Soviet Army. If he decided to escape it would have to be fool proof, absolutely fool proof. Failure means capture by the Soviets. Suicide is more certain.
Why would the Soviets need to or want to lie about Hitler's death? I can't come up with a reason that Hitler being alive would benefit them. The Israelis found Mengeles and found what happened to Bormann, we found Bin Laden. I don't think that people would miss Hitler for the rest of his life.
There is, as you say, no definitive proof that Hitler killed himself but I say there is no definitive proof that he didn't.

[essence]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

There is, as you say, no definitive proof that Hitler killed himself but I say there is no definitive proof that he didn't.

+1.

It is a false argument to say that, because (a) is unlikely or unproven, then (b), which is even more unlikely, is the truth.

False logic.