Any merit to these proposed "work arounds"?

[guest071811-3]

hey guys..never really posted much in here..but have beent thinking for awhile about this..I understand many are from texas..and "texas law" answers are fine..just looking to see if these will float as legit work arounds

lets say instead of making myself available as an "independent" escort.. i simply hold "parties".. where guys pay a few to get in the private party and drink, watch football and I just so happen to be available in the bedroom?


What if I hold a "swingers party".. the guys pay a membership fee to get in the party.. (obviously in every instance the fee is my hourly rate).. finger foods, music, etc etc.. and once again I am in the bed room for fun..NO PAY.. for the fun with me..just there to have sexual fun..


this is a serious question as i just got to thinking that having sex isn't illegal, having a football party or "movie night" is not illegal.. and asking guys to chip in and help pay for the party may not be illegal.. I just so happen to like to fuck guys at the party in my room?

would it work? any other ideas?

obviously the "party" would simply be 1 guy at a time.. but would it work under the guideline or similar one listed above?

[Chica Chaser]

DeAnna, I think it would be absolutely perfect.....assuming you can get the jury to buy your story, that is!

[VeronicaMoore]

I have had similar thoughts. Selling custom massage oils or perfume (for $200) demonstration is free. Things like that. The problem I run into is advertising. If your advertise where escorts advertise, then it doesn't take a genius to figure out your intent. But if you don't advertise in a hobby/escort/adult website, then advertising so subtle might be lost on the clients you're trying to attract.

[Mazomaniac]

For as long as there have been laws people have been trying to figure out creative ways to avoid them.

The road to prison is paved with such people.

Don't waste your time with such tactics. They don't work. Disclaimers about "no offers for sexual activities", "compensation for time and companionship only", etc, etc, etc, are 100% useless. Any lawyer who tells you differently should be reported to the bar for disciplinary action. Any lawyer - and there are some - who offers to write such disclaimers for a fee should be sued for malpractice. None of these tactics offers any legal protection at all. They're all just a waste of effort.

Everybody here needs to accept the fact that there's a chance of criminal and civil penalty in this hobby that's part of the risk of doing business. Nobody's getting around the laws with creative writing. We just have to live with the potential consequences of what we do.

Cheers,
Mazo.

[guest071811-3]

guys guys guys.. i understand the whole "money is for time" line doesn't work.. i am not saying that!! after 7 years in the biz..i get that if you are selling pussy you are busted..

but.. swingers host parties.. swingers host parties that you pay to get into..

swingers and groups host parties that require a entry fee.. so if i don't imply sex is promised as part of the party.. is it illegal? if i simply say that i am hosting a party stop by and say hello.. its $10 to get in

I am simply saying..no matter where its advertised.. would "hosting a party".. that you have to pay to get into.. an "entry fee" of sorts.. where we are just watching football, eating snacks..and happen to have sex be legal?

Would advertising a GANGBANG PARTY.. i.e having a "train" party pulled.. where each guy wanting a turn pays an "entry fee" at the door.. mind you.. i understand in this situation you are kinda paying for the chance to have sex..

just saying.. i understand the law and disclaimers.. but if i am simply saying its a byob party and you gotta pay 100 bucks to get in the door.. is that illegal? can i have sex with the people that come to my party ?

can i be a party host..legalize it.. run it as a business.. as a lady whom sets up parties for people and provides food, non liquor drinks, music, entertainment..and it just so happens i like fucking some of the men whom attend? just saying..

[Randall Creed]

I understand the gist of what you're saying. The problem as I see it, as someone eluded to, is getting the message to the right audience...via what media? Meaning, if you use an escort site to deliver the message, you're basically an escort. If you use flyers on street corners, and 10 guys from the neighborhood show up, and you go to initiate sex with him, and then the next guy, and the next, word's gonna get around the neighborhood about you. The first thing that's going to do is piss off the local wives and girlfriends when ol' Bubba decides that it's better to watch football at YOUR house instead of his own house when he has a 55" inch HD screen.

Even if you got the message to the right group of guys (actual hobbyiest instead of local wouldbe horndogs), would there ever be more than 1 guy at your place at a time? If not, it's still going to look like it normally does to an outsider when a provider is getting visits from guys all day, one at a time. If more than one is there at the same time, are they going to sit idly by twiddling their thumbs waiting their turn? If it's going to be a 'party' atmosphere, I'd think there needs to be more women there. How's that 3rd or 4th guy going to feel waiting his turn, knowing what's going on in the back? Now, if a group of guys agreed to meet a group of ladies, and the 'cover charge' was whatever the providers' rate was per the guy she was supposed to see, maybe. Taking turns with the facilities would be kinda awkward, I'd think. In the end it'd just be a...fuckfest. I dunno. Not sure how to word it, here. Lol.

Don't know how this would fly with the local officials, there. Good luck.

[Mazomaniac]

Originally Posted by DeAnna Luv

but.. swingers host parties.. swingers host parties that you pay to get into..

There is a subtle, but very important difference between this and what you're proposing.

While prostitution is touted as a moral crime, it's actually charged and prosecuted as a commercial crime. In other words, it's not the fact that sex is happening that makes the difference, it's the fact that somebody is having sex and walking away with a pile of cash that makes the difference.

In the case of an entry fee at a swingers party it's clear that what you're buying is not the sex act, it's the booze, club membership, whatever that you're paying for. The person collecting that fee is not having sex with everybody coming through the door. It's arguable under those circumstances that the commercial transaction is for the hosting of the event and not the sex.

That's not the case with what you're proposing. In your example every guest is having sex with the person collecting the fee. That's a prostitution charge for sure.

This same issue has gone through the courts a number of times. Clubs like Plato's Retreat in New York and various gay "bath houses" have successfully avoided prostitution charges because they imposed a strict policy forbidding sex acts between club members and staff. Once you let the hired help start fucking the customers, however, you're over the line into criminal activity. If you're the one collecting the cash you had better not be the one having the fun.

I know that it seems tempting and reasonable to try stuff like this to avoid LE. You're far better off, and much safer, if you just take steps to stay under the radar and out of the cop's way. There are cops and prosecutors out there who will actually look for and go out of their way to bust an operation like what you are talking about. They know it will make a compelling news story and they'll go after you just to get the press. You're actually putting yourself at greater risk of prosecution by trying things like this than you are if you just lay low.

In the end the same advice given above applies: Lawyers and prosecutors are usually pretty smart people. You can't get around the law by out-thinking the government.

(BTW: Sorry if this all sounds a little preachy. I don't mean to be condescending here. It's just that lawyers hear these kinds of proposals all the time from clients in all manners of situations. Tax attorneys are particularly bombarded by all sorts of crazy proposals from people trying to get of their tax bill. To us it's pretty obvious that you aren't going to get away with such things. We often forget, however, that clients don't have the advantage of our training and perspective. Please forgive me if I sounded a little harsh. I didn't intend to put the smack-down on anybody.)

Cheers,
Mazo.

[TxBrandy]

Also remember the case in Dallas of the swingers parties that were going on. Members paid a fee, collected by the house to get in. They were busted for operating a sexually oriented business without a license.

So even if prostitution charges don't apply, they may try to get you on something else, sometimes with a charge that would be worse than a misdemeanor.

[Shackleton]

Deanna, basically prostitution is fee for sex. If jury believes the fee involved in your scheme is a membership fee for entrance to a party and not for sex, then not guilty. If jury believes the fee is for sex, then guilty. Do not for a second believe that the police, prosecutor, and jury are in any way bound by what you call it. They will look at the facts and make a decision as to what they think it really is, not what it's called. This really is conceptually no different than saying that you're selling your time and anything that just so happens between consenting adults is happenstance and unrelated to the fee. If a jury believed that was actually the case, then not guilty. But, I seriously doubt that will be a persuasive argument, just like I doubt anyone will be persuaded by your proposed arrangement into believing that it is not really fee for sex.

[guest071811-3]

Appreciate the comments from everyone...

Let me kick this around a few different ways yet again..

#1. party is NOT advertised.. simply guys i know recieve an invite to come party if they want.. $50 gets you in.. or whatever..

#2. Party is advertised but not on escort sites, not using my known escort name.. swingers party.. $100 bucks per guy, food, beverage, tv, music all provided.. perhaps advertise on CL under personals

I mean what are we saying is the problem..how its advertised? or the party itself? I mean if the party is NO way mentions "sex for money" or sex being part of a fee is it illegal to charge to have a party? obviously existing "clients' would get it.. and understand sex would occur..but if the email contains nothing of the sorts, an ad on CL contains nothing of the sorts.. would it be illegal?

Point being, if its not advertised on known escort sites in a way that obviously even the dumbest juror would see its escorting.. and worded in such a way that sex is not equated to entry fees paid would it cast you in the eye of vice?

I am by no means suggesting im trying to outsmart someone.. i am quite utr and happy with it.. but.. in the end, not only just in texas..but all over, swingers events are held and "memberships paid" or door fees paid to get in the "club" or "house" where sex is occuring, and you are NOT paying in order to get sex.. its just "known" that sex will be going on..

so..is it possible to operate under that umbrella safely

[orion1972]

IDK if this would work but it seems safer if an invitation was given verbally and maybe ask for donations to help pay for party "supplies". I am sure it would be well known that if a guy or 5 were just more than generous with the donation to help cover the supplies maybe that might go over better. AGAIN just my $0.02 and I am probably wrong...LOL

[Mazomaniac]

Originally Posted by DeAnna Luv

Let me kick this around a few different ways yet again..

*Sigh*

DeAnna, honestly. Get over it. It ain't gonna work. No how, no way. Never has, never will. There ain't no magic combination of words or circumstances that lets you end run the law.

Why is it that people always run to lawyers begging for help and then refuse to take a single piece of advice we give them - until, that is, they are calling us from the lockup? If I had a dime for every client who argued with me about how s/he really could get around the law with this or that cute little trick I'd be livin' fatter than Bill Gates and Warren Buffet.

That's all I got to say.

Mazo out.

[Shackleton]

Originally Posted by DeAnna Luv

Appreciate the comments from everyone...

Let me kick this around a few different ways yet again..

#1. party is NOT advertised.. simply guys i know recieve an invite to come party if they want.. $50 gets you in.. or whatever..

#2. Party is advertised but not on escort sites, not using my known escort name.. swingers party.. $100 bucks per guy, food, beverage, tv, music all provided.. perhaps advertise on CL under personals

#1. Is the money really payment for sex? If a jury thinks it is, then prostitution. If the jury thinks it isn't, then not prostitution. It's as simple as that.

#2. Same thing. The facts you mention would seem to make this a stronger case than number one, but it's the exact same question: does the jury think that the money is really payment for sex?

Originally Posted by DeAnna Luv

I mean what are we saying is the problem..how its advertised? or the party itself? I mean if the party is NO way mentions "sex for money" or sex being part of a fee is it illegal to charge to have a party? obviously existing "clients' would get it.. and understand sex would occur..but if the email contains nothing of the sorts, an ad on CL contains nothing of the sorts.. would it be illegal?

We're saying the problem is sex for money.

Originally Posted by DeAnna Luv

Point being, if its not advertised on known escort sites in a way that obviously even the dumbest juror would see its escorting.. and worded in such a way that sex is not equated to entry fees paid would it cast you in the eye of vice?

Now you're asking a different, non-legal question. You need someone with vice experience to tell you what triggers their attention.

Originally Posted by DeAnna Luv

I am by no means suggesting im trying to outsmart someone.. i am quite utr and happy with it.. but.. in the end, not only just in texas..but all over, swingers events are held and "memberships paid" or door fees paid to get in the "club" or "house" where sex is occuring, and you are NOT paying in order to get sex.. its just "known" that sex will be going on..

so..is it possible to operate under that umbrella safely

You answered your own question: "you are NOT paying in order to get sex." Thus, if the jury believes this, not prostitution. It doesn't matter what you call it, how you arrange it, where you advertise it, etc. If you set up some scheme where the jury believes you ARE paying in order to get sex, then it's prostitution.

[pd1995]

back in the late 60's when i worked at a aircraft plant in texas we had two ladies that would sell raffle tickets. they would choose two winners each weekend. the winners would pick what they wanted for the weekend (lake cabin, hotel in or out of town) and the girls provided all the food and drinks. they would make several thousand dollars profit each week. management found out and all that was done to them was firing.

[guest071811-3]

Shackleton..i appreciate your time and banter..

Mazo..get a fuckin life dude.. get over yourself..I didn't come here seeking legit legal advice..i ain't trying to get around the law.. its just thoughts being kicked around and letting some with legal knowledge kick back some ideas and thoughts..

geez dude go get laid.. Its not about taking or NOT taking advice.. since i wasn't looking for guidance..only answers to the questions.. i am in no way shape form or fashion trying to put into use these ideas.. its was merely for a discussion in the "legal" forum.. shackleton obviously got that..