The ATF Experience

[Rehke]

As I’m purging out my thoughts and recollections on hobby stuff, I came up with the idea of discussing what I’m going to call the “ATF Experience”.

We all like different things. And I’m amazed at the variations in experiences that us men are looking for. Some are always after the novelty of the new flavor of the week, some are pursuing a bucket list, some are living out their porn dreams.

I look for the ATF. And here’s my take on that experience.

First and foremost, this is a provider I see both frequently and almost exclusively. I’m the sort of person that likes to focus on something or someone. I’m looking for the extra pleasure of getting to know someone and having a provider know me and what makes me tick. In a sense, I am using this as a substitute for some aspects of a relationship.

After my last divorce, I grappled with both the desire to have my sexual needs met and some level of looking for the better parts of a relationship without strings and drama. As I was focused on both career and pursuing personal interests, I had little time or patience to deal with the hassle of other ways of meeting these needs. Hobbying, with its convenience factor fit the bill perfectly.

The second largest factor is convenience and communication. My schedule and my personality lead to a bit of unpredictability in my moods. The best ATF’s are either available during a wide range of times and easy to schedule, or at least are very good at communicating availability. As I am flexible, I can adjust appointments many times on the fly to help the convenience factor for the provider.

At the very least she has a definite time that she makes available for you if she cannot meet that unpredictability.

Also, the best ATF’s take a little extra time to chat/text once in a while just to keep open the lines of communication if we are not seeing each other that often.

Third is the little extras. An ATF is not a clock watcher. That does not mean things always go over. But sometimes they do and that is cool. Sometimes they end a bit short and that’s cool too. But overall, the play time evens out over the long run. Additionally, she makes herself available for the occasional dinner, hitting a movie, going ice skating or other OTC time. Sometimes with an appointment, sometimes not. But she realizes the value in making that extra time.

Aside from time, there is the extra fun factor. She finds ways to add new dimensions to the experience. Toys, switching things up, changing the routine. She adds in her ideas of what is fun and shares that experience. She lets herself enjoy our time as much as I do and lets herself share in the pleasurable experience.

Costs/Specials. She’s open to and will even volunteer specials, or grandfathered rates, or does something to ease the costs of continuing to see her while maintaining her income. She’s appreciative of tips and will gladly refund something if she pushes things too short or will always make it up the next time. You are not an ATM or just a source of income to her. She understands that you are a valued customer and she rewards your continued patronage with a few perks. If you’re short and she can do it, she will cut you a break, knowing that if she is in a jam, you’re going to be there for her too. She is a partner in business as well as a friend.

Boundaries. This is perhaps the most critical. She becomes a friend, but she does not use “friendship” to manipulate you. She lets you share some insight into her personal life, and accepts what you are willing to share and she does not abuse that. Sometimes she prefers to keep things more businesslike and is more careful of that personal space. But she understands the roles and if you do drift a bit gently helps guide you back onto the appropriate track.

Whatever is going on in her personal life, she is able to take care of her business and not let too much of her personal drama get in the way of seeing you.

And you do not take advantage! While you do get perks, it’s not about just getting cheap pussy. Sometimes you enjoy a really good bargain, but when she needs you, you also step up to the plate. And it works because she really does have your back when you need it as well.

This isn’t dating a provider. She’s not your GF, just a regular lover that you are paying for. It is a business as well as a personal relationship.

You both acknowledge and are fair to each other.

She’s interesting. She’s able to hold her end of a conversation and state her views and ask for your advice and sometimes she takes it and sometimes she does not. But she does consider it. She is the kind of person you enjoy the pillow talk with.

Intimacy. This is perhaps the hardest to find. This isn’t the girl who cuddles and talks your ear off to waste your time. Often the clock isn’t running during this time. She’s sharing her needs for intimacy as well as fulfilling yours. There is that extra touching, caressing, cuddling and pillow talk. She’s aware that the human sexual response is not limited to the genitalia. Interestingly enough for me, she may or may not kiss. But often she does and she knows how to make out.

There is always some extra chemistry that transcends the regular call. When you find this, it is gold. It is a combination of things out of our control and both you and her working on the things that can be controlled.

It lasts. Most of my ATF’s have lasted years. Generally they only end when life events occur that we are no longer able to see each other as frequently as I require to stay focused.

For the most part, I have to say that my ATF experiences have been positive. There have been a few hiccups and I think it’s good to discuss some of the signs that I’ve noticed make for a poor experience when I’m considering a new ATF.

Substances. While some of my ATF’s have had substance issues, somehow they have managed to meet the items I’ve listed above despite that. However, the last few years I’ve noticed a lot more problems when trying to develop a new ATF. While I understand some of the things that drive people to grapple with these issues, there are some things that commonly show up.

The worst and hardest to deal with is the dishonesty. My best ATF’s have been honest about who and what they were. And I am able to accept their limitations and make an informed choice about the level of my involvement. I believe the honest ones have benefited greatly from this in that I have been able to be there for them in a safe way for me. But those that have lied and attempted to manipulate have gotten some short-term gains, but in the long term the ones I have been able to follow have suffered from the consequences of their poor choices. Karma is a real bitch.

Inability to TCB/Communicate/Be convenient. When they become or are irregular in their communication, hard to schedule, it’s usually a bad sign. The good ones always get back to you reasonably quickly if they are busy, or having a bad day. The good ones know that you can possibly help and they don't get bent when you cannot. The ones that leave you hanging, that say they will get back to you and do not almost always are too caught up in their drama or problems to let you be of help. And when you do get to see them, the experience itself usually degrades over time.

The ones that get upset (disappointed is okay) when you can't help and accuse you of betrayal are not worth the time. Ever.

Frequent cancellations, especially without immediate rescheduling are a huge red flag.

Preoccupation with money. When the girl is trying to make the big score. When you do something nice, pre-pay, or make some other arrangement to her benefit and she is not quick to even things up, then you’re looking at a high probability of being used. While the good ones do have money issues and sometimes they are stressed out, their focus is on how they can do something for you in return for you helping them. The ones who always make sure there is a fair exchange and they meet their obligations and promises are gold. The good ones are aware of the extra money you spend for their benefit such as taking them to get their hair/nails done, picking up a pack of smokes or drinks, buying them something to eat and they make sure that you see some real appreciation in what they do, above and beyond the simple "thanks". If the girl demands and takes, or if she simply just lets you do things for her without returning some favor, if her attitude is “if he’s gonna do it, I’ll just take it” then she’s not ATF material.

Inability to take ownership of their faults and failings in the experience. The good ones, when confronted with an issue will both apologize and find some way to make it up. I remember one girl who was very upset after a bad review and we did talk and I pointed out why I wrote the review and she did do things to correct the situation. But the ones who refuse to accept responsibility for what they put or did not put into a call, who will get offended and argue without looking for understanding, those are poison.

The good ones understand that sometimes things don’t work out. And they find a way to make things right. Even better when they have an issue with you, they look to work it out as long as you are willing to listen. The good ones are always interested in doing what it takes to maintain the ATF relationship (even if they might not think of it as such). The bad ones will simply ignore you and move on to the next sucker and wait for you to come crawling back to them. If she won’t make and keep things right, let it go and move on to another.

Drama. Interestingly enough, all of my ATF’s, good and bad have suffered drama. Some of them have had to work through some really tough issues on these boards and in their lives. The good ones find a way to turn things around. The bad ones just blame everyone but themselves for their issues. When I consider drama, it is the reaction to drama and how they handle themselves that really reveals their character.

I am considering discussing some examples of my ATF’s and those who did not make the cut. But I think some commentary is in order and I do have one last iron in the fire that I want to see how she develops.

[falconbueller]

Good post dude. I like most of the things you listed as requirements of an ATF. The communication, TCB, the OTC time, etc. all goodness. I have some candidates developing there as well.

I've lucked out so far that I've had little drama to deal with over the past years. Although I've lurked on the boards more than not so maybe that's why...

[Rehke]

Originally Posted by falconbueller

Good post dude. I like most of the things you listed as requirements of an ATF. The communication, TCB, the OTC time, etc. all goodness. I have some candidates developing there as well.

I've lucked out so far that I've had little drama to deal with over the past years. Although I've lurked on the boards more than not so maybe that's why...

I've learned a lot by lurking. I hope by sharing a bit I add to the community.

BTW, as a footnote, when I say my ATF's have benefited, I'm talking 5 figures in the course of a year. So again, I stress...it's not about cheap pussy. It is about an exchange of value for both parties.

I'm not sure I buy totally that you get what you pay for either. Sometimes you do, sometimes you do not. In my experience there is no real correlation between the cost and the quality of pussy.

There is a direct relation between treating a sincere person well and getting a superior experience.

Another red flag is always, "trust me, it will be worth it". It never, ever works out that way.

There's a lot in here any provider should think about. Especially considering the number of men responding to the recent ISO for a regular. I feel pretty safe in stating that if a girl takes what I've said to heart, she will have problems keeping up with the number of men wanting her to be their ATF.

[SD2011]

Yes

[pyramider]

It would also help her cause if she would post taint.

[gr82bhere]

Well put sir.

[alphaturtle]

Originally Posted by Rehke

As I’m purging out my thoughts and recollections on hobby stuff, I came up with the idea of discussing what I’m going to call the “ATF Experience”.

We all like different things. And I’m amazed at the variations in experiences that us men are looking for. Some are always after the novelty of the new flavor of the week, some are pursuing a bucket list, some are living out their porn dreams.

I look for the ATF. And here’s my take on that experience.

First and foremost, this is a provider I see both frequently and almost exclusively. I’m the sort of person that likes to focus on something or someone. I’m looking for the extra pleasure of getting to know someone and having a provider know me and what makes me tick. In a sense, I am using this as a substitute for some aspects of a relationship.

After my last divorce, I grappled with both the desire to have my sexual needs met and some level of looking for the better parts of a relationship without strings and drama. As I was focused on both career and pursuing personal interests, I had little time or patience to deal with the hassle of other ways of meeting these needs. Hobbying, with its convenience factor fit the bill perfectly.

The second largest factor is convenience and communication. My schedule and my personality lead to a bit of unpredictability in my moods. The best ATF’s are either available during a wide range of times and easy to schedule, or at least are very good at communicating availability. As I am flexible, I can adjust appointments many times on the fly to help the convenience factor for the provider.

At the very least she has a definite time that she makes available for you if she cannot meet that unpredictability.

Also, the best ATF’s take a little extra time to chat/text once in a while just to keep open the lines of communication if we are not seeing each other that often.

Third is the little extras. An ATF is not a clock watcher. That does not mean things always go over. But sometimes they do and that is cool. Sometimes they end a bit short and that’s cool too. But overall, the play time evens out over the long run. Additionally, she makes herself available for the occasional dinner, hitting a movie, going ice skating or other OTC time. Sometimes with an appointment, sometimes not. But she realizes the value in making that extra time.

Aside from time, there is the extra fun factor. She finds ways to add new dimensions to the experience. Toys, switching things up, changing the routine. She adds in her ideas of what is fun and shares that experience. She lets herself enjoy our time as much as I do and lets herself share in the pleasurable experience.

Costs/Specials. She’s open to and will even volunteer specials, or grandfathered rates, or does something to ease the costs of continuing to see her while maintaining her income. She’s appreciative of tips and will gladly refund something if she pushes things too short or will always make it up the next time. You are not an ATM or just a source of income to her. She understands that you are a valued customer and she rewards your continued patronage with a few perks. If you’re short and she can do it, she will cut you a break, knowing that if she is in a jam, you’re going to be there for her too. She is a partner in business as well as a friend.

Boundaries. This is perhaps the most critical. She becomes a friend, but she does not use “friendship” to manipulate you. She lets you share some insight into her personal life, and accepts what you are willing to share and she does not abuse that. Sometimes she prefers to keep things more businesslike and is more careful of that personal space. But she understands the roles and if you do drift a bit gently helps guide you back onto the appropriate track.

Whatever is going on in her personal life, she is able to take care of her business and not let too much of her personal drama get in the way of seeing you.

And you do not take advantage! While you do get perks, it’s not about just getting cheap pussy. Sometimes you enjoy a really good bargain, but when she needs you, you also step up to the plate. And it works because she really does have your back when you need it as well.

This isn’t dating a provider. She’s not your GF, just a regular lover that you are paying for. It is a business as well as a personal relationship.

You both acknowledge and are fair to each other.

She’s interesting. She’s able to hold her end of a conversation and state her views and ask for your advice and sometimes she takes it and sometimes she does not. But she does consider it. She is the kind of person you enjoy the pillow talk with.

Intimacy. This is perhaps the hardest to find. This isn’t the girl who cuddles and talks your ear off to waste your time. Often the clock isn’t running during this time. She’s sharing her needs for intimacy as well as fulfilling yours. There is that extra touching, caressing, cuddling and pillow talk. She’s aware that the human sexual response is not limited to the genitalia. Interestingly enough for me, she may or may not kiss. But often she does and she knows how to make out.

There is always some extra chemistry that transcends the regular call. When you find this, it is gold. It is a combination of things out of our control and both you and her working on the things that can be controlled.

It lasts. Most of my ATF’s have lasted years. Generally they only end when life events occur that we are no longer able to see each other as frequently as I require to stay focused.

For the most part, I have to say that my ATF experiences have been positive. There have been a few hiccups and I think it’s good to discuss some of the signs that I’ve noticed make for a poor experience when I’m considering a new ATF.

Substances. While some of my ATF’s have had substance issues, somehow they have managed to meet the items I’ve listed above despite that. However, the last few years I’ve noticed a lot more problems when trying to develop a new ATF. While I understand some of the things that drive people to grapple with these issues, there are some things that commonly show up.

The worst and hardest to deal with is the dishonesty. My best ATF’s have been honest about who and what they were. And I am able to accept their limitations and make an informed choice about the level of my involvement. I believe the honest ones have benefited greatly from this in that I have been able to be there for them in a safe way for me. But those that have lied and attempted to manipulate have gotten some short-term gains, but in the long term the ones I have been able to follow have suffered from the consequences of their poor choices. Karma is a real bitch.

Inability to TCB/Communicate/Be convenient. When they become or are irregular in their communication, hard to schedule, it’s usually a bad sign. The good ones always get back to you reasonably quickly if they are busy, or having a bad day. The good ones know that you can possibly help and they don't get bent when you cannot. The ones that leave you hanging, that say they will get back to you and do not almost always are too caught up in their drama or problems to let you be of help. And when you do get to see them, the experience itself usually degrades over time.

The ones that get upset (disappointed is okay) when you can't help and accuse you of betrayal are not worth the time. Ever.

Frequent cancellations, especially without immediate rescheduling are a huge red flag.

Preoccupation with money. When the girl is trying to make the big score. When you do something nice, pre-pay, or make some other arrangement to her benefit and she is not quick to even things up, then you’re looking at a high probability of being used. While the good ones do have money issues and sometimes they are stressed out, their focus is on how they can do something for you in return for you helping them. The ones who always make sure there is a fair exchange and they meet their obligations and promises are gold. The good ones are aware of the extra money you spend for their benefit such as taking them to get their hair/nails done, picking up a pack of smokes or drinks, buying them something to eat and they make sure that you see some real appreciation in what they do, above and beyond the simple "thanks". If the girl demands and takes, or if she simply just lets you do things for her without returning some favor, if her attitude is “if he’s gonna do it, I’ll just take it” then she’s not ATF material.

Inability to take ownership of their faults and failings in the experience. The good ones, when confronted with an issue will both apologize and find some way to make it up. I remember one girl who was very upset after a bad review and we did talk and I pointed out why I wrote the review and she did do things to correct the situation. But the ones who refuse to accept responsibility for what they put or did not put into a call, who will get offended and argue without looking for understanding, those are poison.

The good ones understand that sometimes things don’t work out. And they find a way to make things right. Even better when they have an issue with you, they look to work it out as long as you are willing to listen. The good ones are always interested in doing what it takes to maintain the ATF relationship (even if they might not think of it as such). The bad ones will simply ignore you and move on to the next sucker and wait for you to come crawling back to them. If she won’t make and keep things right, let it go and move on to another.

Drama. Interestingly enough, all of my ATF’s, good and bad have suffered drama. Some of them have had to work through some really tough issues on these boards and in their lives. The good ones find a way to turn things around. The bad ones just blame everyone but themselves for their issues. When I consider drama, it is the reaction to drama and how they handle themselves that really reveals their character.

I am considering discussing some examples of my ATF’s and those who did not make the cut. But I think some commentary is in order and I do have one last iron in the fire that I want to see how she develops.

It's all so true! Well said, sir.

[Rock'er]

Wow! You nailed it sir.

[aceofasses]

Loved it buddy. You nailed it.

[Papacorn]

Well said throughout, particularly about the ATF relationship being 2 way street and requiring boundaries for both parties. Neither side has more influence on the relationship, for it to work.

This quote in particular is very true - "If the girl demands and takes, or if she simply just lets you do things for her without returning some favor, if her attitude is “if he’s gonna do it, I’ll just take it” then she’s not ATF material." I would pose that the same idea fits for the hobbyist...free pussy in a pinch "because she owes you" also disqualifies the hobbyist from ATF potential.

It's a relationship like any other and requires mutual respect to survive. Great post.

[Rehke]

"And you do not take advantage! While you do get perks, it’s not about just getting cheap pussy. Sometimes you enjoy a really good bargain, but when she needs you, you also step up to the plate."

It's worth emphasizing this point and I'm glad you brought up your take on it.

There are for too many guys out there looking to take advantage, not up front and not willing to go take the extra step when she needs it.

Developing an ATF has a lot to do with what the guy puts into it. You do a call even when you don't feel like it and she needs some money and she hits you up. You do tip an ATF. You do extra things for her every bit as much as she does.

Sometimes you pay a bill for her and don't really worry about it. You get her a room when she's broke and needs an incall. You understand when she's feeling shitty one day during a call and cut things short yourself and still pay her the full hour. You don't piss and moan at her when this happens.

You don't count every red cent you spend on her. You treat her like a person.

Sometimes she'll blow off another call to see you and sometimes she'll have a good call come in that you'll push back your own time so she can make that extra money.

I've had girls sick and obviously hurting and I've made sure that they had a room and enough cash to get some food and left it at that.

Yeah, it's a relationship.

Originally Posted by Papacorn

Well said throughout, particularly about the ATF relationship being 2 way street and requiring boundaries for both parties. Neither side has more influence on the relationship, for it to work.

This quote in particular is very true - "If the girl demands and takes, or if she simply just lets you do things for her without returning some favor, if her attitude is “if he’s gonna do it, I’ll just take it” then she’s not ATF material." I would pose that the same idea fits for the hobbyist...free pussy in a pinch "because she owes you" also disqualifies the hobbyist from ATF potential.

It's a relationship like any other and requires mutual respect to survive. Great post.

[SD2011]

Originally Posted by Rehke

"And you do not take advantage! While you do get perks, it’s not about just getting cheap pussy. Sometimes you enjoy a really good bargain, but when she needs you, you also step up to the plate."

It's worth emphasizing this point and I'm glad you brought up your take on it.

There are for too many guys out there looking to take advantage, not up front and not willing to go take the extra step when she needs it.

Developing an ATF has a lot to do with what the guy puts into it. You do a call even when you don't feel like it and she needs some money and she hits you up. You do tip an ATF. You do extra things for her every bit as much as she does.

Sometimes you pay a bill for her and don't really worry about it. You get her a room when she's broke and needs an incall. You understand when she's feeling shitty one day during a call and cut things short yourself and still pay her the full hour. You don't piss and moan at her when this happens.

You don't count every red cent you spend on her. You treat her like a person.

Sometimes she'll blow off another call to see you and sometimes she'll have a good call come in that you'll push back your own time so she can make that extra money.

I've had girls sick and obviously hurting and I've made sure that they had a room and enough cash to get some food and left it at that.

Yeah, it's a relationship.

I like that perspective very much. At one time, I had a very good SB situation and while it is hard to explain how it worked like it did....it just did (for some of the very reasons you mentioned). So much unsaid, so much we just knew to do naturally. It was comforting to both of us.

I kind of miss that (and definitely her). Such a good lady. Eventually (after 2 years+ of a great time, travel, fun) I helped her move to the PNW to be with/help her own family there and start over.

Then I came here... :/

[Rehke]

If I were to consider a spectrum, it would be something like this:

GF/Spouse---FWB----SB--|--ATF/UTR---Provider

The ATF can bleed over into SB territory. But I put a divider in there to demarcate one key difference. And that is the primary source of income. There's a ton of discussion about the differences between SB's and Providers and for me, this is the where it really lies.

Sex workers (Providers, Strippers, Gold Diggers, "Kept Women", etc.) have some sort of sex-related work as their primary income. For them, time=money. Any time a relationship is based on those factors, it is on one side.

On the other side time and money are not directly related and sex work is NOT the primary source of income. While I may, as a SD, replace the financial equivalent of a part-time job, pay bills, or provide other support, those things are done to enable ither factors of the relationship.

BTW, just because a sex worker tries to use a label from on side, SB being most common, it does NOT mean she is not a sex worker. It all depends on the PRIMARY source of income/support.

In all relationships, there is always some sort of resource sharing or support that occurs. Thus the trusim that you always pay for pussy. It's a question of how you want to pay for it and what experience you are seeking.

Another key difference that seems to occur on that boundary is the influence you can have on her personal life. On the left, there is mentoring, guidance and you do tend to effect some sort of positive and permanent change in a girl's life. On the right, it is much more rare. A common thought process of the girl on the right is that she has to learn from making her own mistakes, that she wants to try for herself.

On the left, its more a case of being open to learning from the experience of others.

I suspect it boils down to an issue of trust. On the left, there have been positive male influences and the girl is able to develop healthy trust bonds with men. On the right, there are definite issues with trusting men and people in general. There are also substantial issues with choices about who they trust. Girls on the right tend to trust the wrong types of people and that feeds a never-ending cycle of desperate attempts to trust, betrayal, anger and distrust. When a guy happens in their life that they could trust, they often fail to do so as they are always waiting for the betrayal. If it doesn't come, then they make choices that damage the relationship and manufacture the betrayal themselves.

This is also an area that I sometimes struggle with myself. It's particularly exacerbated by my experience the last few years being involved in a bad situation, but the underlying mechanisms have always been there. For me, key factors have been much more careful selection of who I associate with and a much greater willingness to terminate relationships and associations when I start detecting red flags, and not finding ways to excuse them.

Trust is an issue that simply takes time and experience with a person to develop. My best friend has free reign to come to my house at any time. But we've been through a lot and never once have we had any breach of trust. Not one.

Conflicting with building of that trust is the immediate demands of a situation. A person is fighting financial issues, needs a lot of help right away and does not have the resources to return the favor. It's very hard to distinguish this from the person who is simply going to take whatever they can get and leave you high and dry.

The only resolution I can come up with is to give some trust, and look for some relatively immediate effort toward keeping things even. Then a little more. And I do let people know when they must step up and do something before I have to assume the negative. In the end, inability or unwillingness to keep things fair between us have the same effect on me and are a moot point.

Originally Posted by SD2011

I like that perspective very much. At one time, I had a very good SB situation and while it is hard to explain how it worked like it did........it just did (for some of the very reasons you mentioned). So much unsaid, so much we just knew to do naturally. It was comforting to both of us.

I kind of miss that (and definitely her). Such a good lady. Eventually (after 2 years+ of a great time, travel, fun) I helped her move to the PNW to be with/help her own family there and start over.

Then I came here... :/

[SD2011]

Agreed. The shift (left or right) of that line and where the engagement/relationship evolved was indeed a matter of trust and understanding. I agree also about the income variation (primary or supplemental source).

I find myself at times with my own internal conflict about opting for the provider or SB route. I'm better suited for SB as I prefer a one gal approach rather than the multiple one that many hobbyists prefer.

I've had one provider who I don't see (session wise) but know outside the hobby as a lovely and caring mom (yes, many of them here are), tell me I don't belong here and I know (in my heart) she is absolutely right.

Yet still...here I am (for now)

[falconbueller]

Dude... you are on a roll the last few days! I like the spectrum you have... I think for me I like (or want) someone right ON THAT LINE between SB and ATF. That is a very cool way to think of it. Kudos to you my friend... kudos.