Freedom of Speech...

[Valerie]

I'm curious to know how everyone feels about this topic....

It seems the right to free speech is getting less and less, and cencorship more and more. I mean people can go to jail now for sending someone an unwanted text message?...a freaking text message! I just can't fathom how a few texts messages is cause enough to arrest someone and put them in the same jail (with actual criminals).. Or if you get into a verbal altercation, if you use a curse word someone can turn around and make a bloody police report on you.
Seems like in today's society everyone is stepping on their tip toes just so no ones feelings get hurt, and it seems to be only getting worse. So many things people are afraid to do or say because it might "offend" someone...I'm not saying I think everyone should run around being disrespectful and rude, but at what point is a line going to be drawn?

I truly feel censorship is a cancer...

[I B Hankering]

I believe all of our liberties are at risk: freedom of speech included. Leon Trotsky coined the phrase "politically correct." It means to speak and believe as you are supposed to, regardless of your conscience, regardless of reality.

[Guest053011]

Everything is about context.

Should someone be jailed for *just* a text message - no. However, if some is being a stalker, and using text as a way to persistently harass, threaten and intimidate - yes.

There was a very memorable case of a young girl who committed suicide after months of bullying in school, that then continued after classes were out with facebook, email and text. Those horrible young girls deserve no less then jail.

Persisant abuse is abuse whether in person or online. If it would be horrible to say to someone's face, it's just as dreadful to say online to a complete stranger.

Though I do not believe in censorship, I also do not believe in the theatre of hate that cowards play out because of the anonymity given them.

[MrGiz]

There is no such thing as having a "right" to not be offended!!

Anyone who believes otherwise , I find to be offensive.... but so what.... I move on!!

Giz

[Guest053011]

And what do we do when the right to express yourself and hate goes further:

When skin heads start an annual march with swastikas, speaking against all those of color and homosexuals and immigrants?

When a teenager fights to keep a website up that encourages the rape and murder of sex workers?

When a pedophile publishes a book on amazon about how to skirt the law when having a "relationship" with a child?

Do we choose not to get offended by the deplorable? Let it run free, let it find people to join them and grow in number? Let the shadows of the world stretch a little farther because pacifism will cure it all?

[charlestudor2005]

Lauren is right...it depends on context.

Hate speech (in the US) has been a crime for a long time. Continuous conduct that rises to the level of harassment has also been a crime. It can also give rise to the issuing of a protective order, which, if broken, can land the offender in jail, not necessarily for the conduct, but for merely breaking the protective order.

And, it depends on who is attempting to suppress the speech. If it is the government, the government has a harder time than a private person. A while ago a young girl in the midwest committed suicide after being harassed on FB or by email (I forget). If I remember correctly, the mother of the young lady that committed suicide sued the woman who harassed her daughter. There is more ability for a private party to sue someone for a wrong committed as a part of outrageous speech.

Finally, the ultimate control of speech. Your employer. You can't just willy nilly say whatever you want in the workplace. They can fire you. And sometimes they do. And what recourse do you have? None. Free speech applies to the government. (Note: there are several places where your speech is protected, but they are pretty rare.)

The other problem is the current technology. What people used to whisper among themselves, they have no compunction about putting on FB (or ECCIE). Consequences exist for what you put into print, and we should all remember this.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Valerie

Seems like in today's society everyone is stepping on their tip toes just so no ones feelings get hurt, and it seems to be only getting worse. So many things people are afraid to do or say because it might "offend" someone...I'm not saying I think everyone should run around being disrespectful and rude, but at what point is a line going to be drawn?

I truly feel censorship is a cancer...

Well stated....count me as one that would like to find a cure for this cancer.

Originally Posted by MrGiz

There is no such thing as having a "right" to not be offended!!

Anyone who believes otherwise , I find to be offensive.... but so what.... I move on!!

Giz

Wait, I think I read this wrong, are you saying that people do not have a right NOT to be offended?

Can't agree with that if that is what you meant

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

Everything is about context.

Should someone be jailed for *just* a text message - no. However, if some is being a stalker, and using text as a way to persistently harass, threaten and intimidate - yes.

There was a very memorable case of a young girl who committed suicide after months of bullying in school, that then continued after classes were out with facebook, email and text. Those horrible young girls deserve no less then jail.

Her teachers and parents and passive students are just as responsible as the students that abused her.

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

Persisant abuse is abuse whether in person or online. If it would be horrible to say to someone's face, it's just as dreadful to say online to a complete stranger.

Though I do not believe in censorship, I also do not believe in the theatre of hate that cowards play out because of the anonymity given them.

Lauren, I feel you subtly abuse me...that does not mean I think you should be banned. If I did not have thick skin, you would be under it, is that your fault or mine? What is the difference between sending PM's behind one's back that you will not say to their face? Do you see what a slippery slope you start down when you give the power to censor?

[Guest053011]

There is no true answer - only a gradient. On one end the freedom to express, even what people don't like, in the interest of progress, art, and exploration. Go too far and you have hate and violence - a world without human dignity, respect and reverence.

This tug of war will never end, and it never should. The line is too fine, and going too far in either direction dangerous for the well being of the human condition. We must always try to do what is right, not blindly defend a single position with religious fervor. That which is right should always be evaluated and re-evaluated.

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

There was a very memorable case of a young girl who committed suicide after months of bullying in school, that then continued after classes were out with facebook, email and text. Those horrible young girls deserve no less then jail.

Persisant abuse is abuse whether in person or online. If it would be horrible to say to someone's face, it's just as dreadful to say online to a complete stranger.

Was this the girl in poland? or the czech republic? I heard about that, it was awful! It was following a very real sexual harrassment though.
Then there is that other guy who just happened to jump from the George W brigde (in my private blog i write about that matter) - Tyler Clementi - after getting bullied and harrassed by his roommates.

I think, however , the answer to that topic is not quite so simple. I am a person who prefers to tell people stuff in the face, and let them learn and grow or defend themselves, as opposed to backstab them secretely and tell them nice stories in the face. And i have personally way more problems with said people since it leaves the ones talked about defenseless. (Interesting enough - hate speech in europe seems to be only a crime when concerning the Nationalsocialism - it seems to be ok to be a racist politically without being put in prison , stalking someone is much harder to proof and to defend than in the USA either - there are people being harrassed constantly and its very hard to proof in court - a female collegue of mine from switzerland has a stalker !! Its hard, because she is a sexworker (oooh i mean massage therapist) the courts just don`t do anything in her favour ... i think in the USA its a bit different. But still .. look at the case of Tyler Clementi, where a simple "i am sorry" from his perpetrators is seen legally as a guilty plea.... so much about ethics , right? )

The question is, what does more harm? Having a bad character and showing it in internet or whenever you go making people upset or defending themselves ? Or pretending to play nice while secretely backstabbing people behing their backs? Both acts are very very shameful and to be resented.

And I mean, we had that discussion earlier here as well, on escorts dating someone with racist intent. Does it serve the purpose of racism better if you just stop talking about it? Or do you rather take offense and state an opinion? I think - even if the barriers are close - (and for whom that might find young immature women interesting books like LOLITA have been written....and censored.... but still read)

do you then think that just censorship alone prevents misuse? Or the usual "turn your heads away" and "pretend it didn`t happen" ? . I don`t think so. The act of forbidding an expression does not make that said expression not happening.
I think the prevention has to start way earlier. With ethic courses in school. While religious instruction i do not see so purposeful, because some religions fuel hate against minorities (sexworkers, gay people) as well , i see an ethics instruction on how to broaden your mind way better. And to discuss various issues and constructive ways of handling them.

Freud already statet that culture is an invention to keep the beast within the humans within content.
And the same points that you stated against immigration and sexworkers, some conservatives or fundamentalists can state against sexworkers and the content of your actions.
How would you feel if someone tells you to shut up, because your profession is an unworthy one and people should be saved from your opinion?
As we already discovered in the diamonds thread: "what is normal for one person is offensive for another person". And i am talking about boundaries within the "normal" psychological personas of people. Not about rapists and child abusers and perverted men who have no respect for nothing. But even within the normative standards of - average - and normal people like us who do not touch the boarders to insanity - its still a very uneasy topic to discuss.
My rule of thumb - even if political uncorrect - rather discuss issues than have them happening and ignoring them. I think IF we are to prevent abuse of any sort its rather by letting people state their opinion and THEn take measurements of discussion so people can learn and grow. Or not. But just ignoring issues is preventing any kind of growth per se.

And it does not stop perverts from acting out either. Gay movements and feminism liberals would not have been reaping all their benefits they gather now (still its not enough) if they always were served a - legally threatened - big cup of shut the f*ck up! I remember being gay way once punishable, so was being black and sitting on a bench in a bus. If people always followed laws no progress ever would happen.

I think its worse to pretend everything is ok and ignore issues than be confronted with sometimes crappy opinions and learn how to defend yourself, shape your brain and eventually help others. I think perverts are an exception to any rule per se. But still they do have to talk, because otherwise no ICD or DSM manuals were being able to make.

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

There is no true answer - only a gradient. On one end the freedom to express, even what people don't like, in the interest of progress, art, and exploration. Go too far and you have hate and violence - a world without human dignity, respect and reverence.

This tug of war will never end, and it never should. The line is too fine, and going too far in either direction dangerous for the well being of the human condition. We must always try to do what is right, not blindly defend a single position with religious fervor. That which is right should always be evaluated and re-evaluated.

does going too far include nipples in american Tv.....;-))).....hehehehehehe......

on a more serious note:
hate and violence is something that comes with taking a position. Better when that position is threatened. People have to fight nails and toes to get their rights recognised, be it gay, sexworkers rights or any other - liberal - movement. Why do you think most escorts are silent about their jobs? If everyone would love them? But still i prefer wars of words. Philosophers also wrote books about each others thesis to make a point. That is how people grow. If i shoot everyone that is not of my kind, as it happens in real wars, does it make the winner right?

this reminds me of a quote of a russian movie (Brat 2 , brother 2) its fantastic! Its about someone being screwed over financially and how some others help to make that right again:
"what's the power is? Is it really money? That's what my brother says.
— Well, you got lots of money, so what? I think the power is in the truth, Whoever is right is strong. Say, you've screwed someone out of money, made money of that - Did it make you stronger?? No, it did not. Because there is no truth on you! And the guy who got screwed is right.. That means he's stronger, right?" --Danilin in Brat 2

[discreetgent]

The bullying case was I believe in the US.

re: discussion http://eccie.net/showthread.php?t=139594

[John Bull]

There is no right to live without being offended at some time or another.

There is freedom from censorship only from the government and only where the speech is of a political nature.

Walmart can censor books and music for sale in their store all they like. You can do the same in your store.

[NinaBrooke]

interesting video touching that topic on ethics and education:
21st century enlightement, modern values ...and stuff.....i love these animations they are really really cool IMHO
http://www.youtube.com/user/theRSAorg#p/u/1/AC7ANGMy0yo

[MrGiz]

Originally Posted by John Bull

There is no right to live without being offended at some time or another....

Which was my only point!

Giz

[WTF]

Originally Posted by John Bull

There is no right to live without being offended at some time or another.

.

Its not a right, its a choice.

I choose not to be offended, I thought Gizzy was saying I didn't have a right to choose!

Problem is some people get offended anytime you sniff their crotch