Firing Squad?

[Iaintliein]

From what I've read, I have to say the death penalty is appropriate here:

http://www.ktuu.com/news/ktuu-morloc...,1028818.story

These assholes have just ratcheted up the danger for everyone else in theater, and the coming spring offensive has already been estimated to be the worst to date.

[Rudyard K]

Yep, sounds like justice...and sounds swift and sure.

I do wish our non-citizen terrorist friends would suffer the same fate.

[NinaBrooke]

As much as i do not condone nor endorse what happened here, i despise it, i do not see death penalty fit.

My reasons are simple: to be involved in a war makes you tough and animalistic. That is plain military training. In love and in war everything seems to be allowed. Not that it is my opinion, but its facts. There is no war in which cruelty does not happen.

I do not condone it, i find it outrageous what this guy has done, but ..... who wonders when they get trained like blood dogs and get thirsty for it?
It does not strike me as surprising. It is cruel though that people are capable of doing such things, but in combat they all are. Wars and the participants are not or never rational. Unfortunately.

So the solution for this is not death penalty which makes someone as bad as they are - but rather an inquiry into the ethics of war. I hope this does not get misunderstood, as i said i do not condone what has happened, i am not for wars, but things like this - unfortunately - are the RESULT of wars. That is my point.

[I B Hankering]

24 years in prison does sound light for three murders and the associated repercussions.

[pjorourke]

Actually, it sounds stiff compared with what actually happens in civilian courts.

[charlestudor2005]

Well, this plea bargain is probably the direct result of a PR nightmare undergone by the Army.

It is common to have sentences run concurrently instead of consecutively. Since it is hard to break out the sentence for conspiracy, let's just leave that out. It means that each death was a 24 year sentence, and if served consecutively, it would have amounted to 72 years.

But, reading in between the lines, the Army had to turn one of the conspirators against he other two, and Morlock was easy because he stood the most to lose. So, he was the easiest to flip. He'll testify against the others and the whole case will die without much publciity...at least not as much as Abu Graib.

And besides, these were innocent Afghans, not assets of worth. So they shouldn't be valued as highly as if they did this to U.S. collaborators.

JOINT BASE LEWIS-MCCHORD, Wash.—
A Joint Base Lewis-McChord soldier from Wasilla accused of killing Afghan civilians entered a guilty plea in court Wednesday.

Spc. Jeremy Morlock is one of the 5th Stryker Brigade soldiers allegedly shown posing with corpses in pictures.

One of Morlock's attorneys said he hoped the guilty plea will reduce Morlock's sentence. Under this plea agreement, Morlock would face a maximum sentence of 24 years.

The 22-year-old soldier pleaded guilty to three counts of murder, one count of conspiracy and one drug charge. Morlock is one of five soldiers accused of killing three unarmed Afghan men last year.

The court-martial comes days after a German news organization, Der Spiegel, published three graphic photos showing Morlock and other soldiers posing with dead Afghans. One image features Morlock grinning as he lifts the head of a corpse by its hair.

Army officials had sought to strictly limit access to the photographs due to their sensitive nature. A spokesperson for the magazine declined to say how it had obtained the pictures, citing the need to protect its sources.

The Army claims this was a rogue platoon of U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan. Defense Secretary Robert Gates admitted he was "upset" by the photos, but refused to comment on details of the case during his visit to Moscow.

"Well it's associated with an ongoing judicial matter. And so I obviously am not at any liberty to comment," said Gates.

The court martial started at 9 a.m. at Joint Base Lewis McChord.

According to a copy of the plea agreement, which was obtained by The Associated Press, Morlock agreed to testify against his co-defendants. In his plea deal, Morlock said he and others slaughtered the three civilians knowing that they were unarmed and posed no legitimate threat.

He also described taking a lead role in the January incident -- lobbing a grenade at the civilian while another soldier shot at him, and then lying about it to his squad leader.

Morlock told investigators the murder plot was led by Staff Sgt. Calvin Gibbs, of Billings, Mont., who is also charged in the case; Gibbs maintains the reasons behind the killings were legitimate.
Nathan said Morlock’s mother, hockey coach and pastor are among the witnesses who might testify on his behalf in court. He indicated the defense would argue that a lack of leadership in the unit contributed to the killings.

After the January killing, platoon member Spc. Adam Winfield, of Cape Coral, Fla., sent Facebook messages to his parents saying that his fellow soldiers had murdered a civilian and were planning to kill more. Winfield said his colleagues warned him not to tell anyone.

Winfield’s father alerted a staff sergeant at Lewis-McChord, which is south of Seattle, but no action was taken until May, when a witness in a drug investigation in the unit also reported the deaths.
Winfield is accused of participating in the final murder. He admitted in a videotaped interview that he took part and said he feared the others might kill him if he didn’t.

Also charged in the murders are Pvt. 1st Class Andrew Holmes of Boise, Idaho, and Spc. Michael Wagnon II of Las Vegas.

Seven other soldiers in the platoon are charged with lesser crimes, including assaulting the witness in the drug investigation, drug use, firing on unarmed farmers and stabbing a corpse.

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

24 years in prison does sound light for three murders and the associated repercussions.

Does it? The man who tortured my best escort friend has killed a woman before her and was sentenced to 9 years in prison in germany. He went free after 6 years on parole. And almost killed my collegue. Great! You`d assume after 24 years people have at least a change of heart or are to old , fat and exhausted to commit crimes like that.
I wish the guy would have gotten 24 years as well Instead of running free after 6 . So considering what happens in Europe i can only say "yay to the USA"

[rachet3375]

You know Junior, some of the things we've done, man. I don't feel like we've done something wrong. Sometimes man, I get this bad feeling. I told the padre the truth man, I like it here. Get to do what you want, nobody fucks with you. The only worry you got is dying. And if that happens you won't know about it anyway. So what the fuck man? [font size fixed by mod]

Sorry for the small font. The movie Platoon was a fairly good example of how the horrors of war can harden the hearts of otherwise good men. Another line and I paraphrase... Bunny is saying that because the possibility of death is ever present and authority is mostly absent then they can do whatever evil they want and Chris says that it is because death is ever present and likely that they should not do evil deeds and risk their souls. Anyway we train these 18 yo guys to be killers and it would be extremely unrealistic not to think some may develop morality issuses esp. if deployed in remote locations under demoralizing conditions. This is no excuse and not all succumb, but I too do not think the death penalty is called for. I don't have any solutions and I wish it were otherwise. Wars are not the answer but we haven't the intelligence to come up with alternate solutions

Nina you appear to be a beautifully complex, intelligent, articulate lady. I would love the opportunity to sit down with you and bask in your beauty and intellect. Unfortunately geography conspires against us and our meeting is unlikely. However, I do enjoy reading your posts.

[Iaintliein]

The point is that these actions go beyond simple murder. This materially gives aide and comfort to the enemy. It's bad enough that we've made it known we are leaving, before we let it be know we weren't, before we hinted that we might, etc.

From what I've read jihadis are flocking into Pakistan to get in on the fun before it's over, and this sort of thing will only bring in more. Granted, getting them together in one place is a great idea if the idea is the kill them. But our ROE's seem to be aimed at giving them target practice.

These fools did more than kill civilians, they endangered their comrades for no good reason.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by rachet3375

This is no excuse and not all succumb,

+1
Key point! The article is fairly sterile and antiseptic, and makes it sound like these men premeditatedly agreed to kill innocent civilians for a photo op. If that is indeed the case, then 76 years for three murders and the deaths of fellow servicemen because of their action would be minimal, satisfactory justice; whereas, 24 years, with a chance at pardon is not. The article doesn’t suggest any “heat of battle—life or death” decision making or even prolonged anger and frustration similar to that of the troops associated with My Lai: it just sounds like murder. In war, context is very important, IMO. I would amend my opinion if there are mitigating circumstances.

@ Nina – I empathize with you in your frustration regarding your friend’s attack. I wish things were different.

[topsgt38801]

Being retired Army, I know in the heat of battle and seeing your buddies killed can sometimes send you off the deep end and you can lose control of your normal capacities and do things you would not do in a normal situation. In this scenario, and I can only go by what the media is putting out about the individuals, they essentially set up a death squad to kill innocents and took trophies from the bodies. Even though they were Afghans or whomever, they did not deserve that type of treatment and the soldiers should receive a much heavier penalty. I would not go the death penalty because I do not know how long thay had been there or what situations they had been through prior to these events, but they do need many more years than the amount listed with no early parole.

The crimes they committed will place many of their fellow soldiers in even more extreme danger than normal because of this and because the German Paper had the audacity to post pictures when these individuals who were already under prosecution for their crimes.

Wars happen and war crimes also happen. War is hell, but these are highly trained soldiers and they should be able to maintain enough of their capacities to restrain from this type of action.

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[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by rachet3375

[SIZE=1]
Nina you appear to be a beautifully complex, intelligent, articulate lady. I would love the opportunity to sit down with you and bask in your beauty and intellect. Unfortunately geography conspires against us and our meeting is unlikely. However, I do enjoy reading your posts.

Hi Rachet. Not so long in the future geography won`t be an issue anymore and i have never been to Texas - so i am sure we will find time to sit down eventually.

And i agree with everything else you stated. I myself am a pacifist, would never touch a weapon, but i know soldiers and mercenaries and their stories, i do respect them and their judgements. Good people and pacifism is sometimes an unattainable ideal. Sometimes you have to "keep the peace" with weapons. I also know people who work for "doctors without limits" and i see their points too. Sometimes they get attacked and killed too for no reason. War is beyond logic. Which is sad.

I remember my grandmothers story on the aftermath of the second world war when everyone would try to escape to the side of the americans because they were civil and kind (mostly) since they have not been actively involved in the war and did not have family casualities. The russians - however - suffered so many family losses during the war that they were so full of anger starting to rape and torture all the women and men they found out of hate. No matter if they were politically at their side or not. Just being German / Austrian qualified as being a Nazi.

I also remember a story of one of my ex lovers whose father was held in prison camp amongst also american prisoners of war (during the war) because he was a christian married to a jewish woman and did not want to dismiss her. The american soldiers beat him up so severly that he almost lost his life, just because they thought he must have been a Nazi since he was Austrian. Its horrible what people are capable to do once emotions are involved. Stigmatizing people leds to acts of horrible anger and outlets like the one we saw in the thread posted. People innocent are killed or tortured.

Also , i may remind of that video posted by someone who outed it to wikileaks. Its similar scenario where the Reuters reporters are killed and innocent children. They were eager to shoot and they shot.

[Iaintliein]

Originally Posted by ninasastri

Hi Rachet. Not so long in the future geography won`t be an issue anymore and i have never been to Texas - so i am sure we will find time to sit down eventually.

And i agree with everything else you stated. I myself am a pacifist, would never touch a weapon, but i know soldiers and mercenaries and their stories, i do respect them and their judgements. Good people and pacifism is sometimes an unattainable ideal. Sometimes you have to "keep the peace" with weapons. I also know people who work for "doctors without limits" and i see their points too. Sometimes they get attacked and killed too for no reason. War is beyond logic. Which is sad.

I remember my grandmothers story on the aftermath of the second world war when everyone would try to escape to the side of the americans because they were civil and kind (mostly). The russians - however - suffered so many family losses during the war that they were so full of anger starting to rape and torture all the women and men they found out of hate. No matter if they were politically at their side or not. Just being German / Austrian qualified as being a Nazi.

I also remember a story of one of my ex lovers whose father was held in prison camp amongst also american prisoners of war (during the war) because he was a christian married to a jewish woman and did not want to dismiss her. The american soldiers beat him up so severly that he almost lost his life, just because they thought he must have been a Nazi since he was Austrian. Its horrible what people are capable to do once emotions are involved. Stigmatizing people leds to acts of horrible anger and outlets like the one we saw in the thread posted. People innocent are killed or tortured.

Also , i may remind of that video posted by someone who outed it to wikileaks. Its similar scenario where the Reuters reporters are killed and innocent children. They were eager to shoot and they shot.

With all due respect, and perhaps we are speaking of different videos, but the people with the reporters who were killed were very clearly armed.

[topsgt38801]

Originally Posted by ninasastri

Hi Rachet. Not so long in the future geography won`t be an issue anymore and i have never been to Texas - so i am sure we will find time to sit down eventually.

And i agree with everything else you stated. I myself am a pacifist, would never touch a weapon, but i know soldiers and mercenaries and their stories, i do respect them and their judgements. Good people and pacifism is sometimes an unattainable ideal. Sometimes you have to "keep the peace" with weapons. I also know people who work for "doctors without limits" and i see their points too. Sometimes they get attacked and killed too for no reason. War is beyond logic. Which is sad.

I remember my grandmothers story on the aftermath of the second world war when everyone would try to escape to the side of the americans because they were civil and kind (mostly) since they have not been actively involved in the war and did not have family casualities. The russians - however - suffered so many family losses during the war that they were so full of anger starting to rape and torture all the women and men they found out of hate. No matter if they were politically at their side or not. Just being German / Austrian qualified as being a Nazi.

I also remember a story of one of my ex lovers whose father was held in prison camp amongst also american prisoners of war (during the war) because he was a christian married to a jewish woman and did not want to dismiss her. The american soldiers beat him up so severly that he almost lost his life, just because they thought he must have been a Nazi since he was Austrian. Its horrible what people are capable to do once emotions are involved. Stigmatizing people leds to acts of horrible anger and outlets like the one we saw in the thread posted. People innocent are killed or tortured.

Also , i may remind of that video posted by someone who outed it to wikileaks. Its similar scenario where the Reuters reporters are killed and innocent children. They were eager to shoot and they shot.

Ninasastri,

As I stated, I am retired Army and the major point I would like to make is soldiers do the bidding of civilian governments and it is the civilian governments or dictators and despots that start wars and not soldiers. We are dedicated to the service of our country because we love to serve and feel duty bound to do so. The greatest majority of soldiers would prefer to train to fight to be able to maintain a peaceful world than ever have to go into battle and kill or harm anyone. Most all would prefer a world without war and without armies, but that is not the way the world is. The same with good people and criminals. There are so many good people in the world, but many of them have to suffer at the hands of bad people.

There are many more good soldiers than bad soldiers the same as there are many more good people than bad people, but alas the world must deal with both. If we could only live in a perfect world.

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[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by ninasastri

Also , i may remind of that video posted by someone who outed it to wikileaks. Its similar scenario where the Reuters reporters are killed and innocent children. They were eager to shoot and they shot.

Iaintliein ain't lyin' - On the morning of July 12, 2007, the crews of two United States Army AH-64 Apache helicopters observed a gathering of men near an open air section of Baghdad. The crews estimated that group was made up of twenty men. This group included two members of staff from the Reuters news service, Namir Noor-Eldeen and Saeed Chmagh who were not identified as journalists. The helicopter crews mistook the cameras carried by Saeed Chmagh and Namir Noor-eldeen for weapons. At least one man in that group was carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher and another was carrying an AK-47 assault rifle. A crew member reported seeing "five to six individuals with AK-47s" and, believing that the entire group were Iraqi insurgents, requested authorization to engage. The men were obscured behind a building. Once they became visible again, both helicopters strafed a group of ten men with 30 mm rounds. Several men were killed, including Noor-Eldeen, and Chmagh war correspondents for Reuters.

WikiLeaks said in the preface to one of their videos of the incident that "some of the men appear to have been armed [although] the behavior of nearly everyone was relaxed" in the introductory text of the shorter video. Julian Assange said “permission to engage was given before the word ‘RPG’ was ever used”. Assange later acknowledged "Based upon visual evidence I suspect there probably were AKs and an RPG, but I'm not sure that means anything," Assange stated that initial attempts to evacuate the wounded children to a nearby US military hospital were blocked by US military command. The legal review carried out by the US Army states that the two children were evacuated to the 28th Combat Support Hospital via Forward Operating Base Loyalty, then transferred to an Iraqi medical facility the next day.

Fox News said that of the attack “WikiLeaks appears to have done selective editing that tells only half the story. For instance, the Web site takes special care to slow down the video and identify the two photographers and the cameras they are carrying.... The Web site does not slow down the video to show that at least one man in that group was carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, a clearly visible weapon that runs nearly two-thirds the length of his body. WikiLeaks also does not point out that at least one man was carrying an AK-47 assault rifle. He is seen swinging the weapon below his waist while standing next to the man holding the RPG."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12...hdad_airstrike