why take out the starting pitcher

[VitaMan]

We have seen it several times in the playoffs - very few hits or runs when the starting pitcher is pitching - put in the reliever, and the scoring starts ! The game last night was a good example of this for the Astros.

[RyanFromTER]

Because outside of Dallas & Justin none of the other "starters" for the Astros are good for more than 4 to 5 innings. They would be gassed, and less effective then Giles was yesterday.

Also have you ever played organized fast pitch baseball?

[RyanFromTER]

Because outside of Dallas & Justin none of the other "starters" for the Astros are good for more than 4 to 5 innings. They would be gassed, and less effective then Giles was yesterday.

Also have you ever played organized fast pitch baseball?

[Chung Tran]

I've been asking that for 20 years or more.. it happens all the time, take out a Starter who is pitching well, new guy can't find the plate, gets whacked. dumbest metric in MLB, # of pitches.. fuck, when I was a kid, Wilbur Wood pitched both games of a double-header, complete games in both. Fergie Jenkins would go 50% more innings, year after year, than the top innings pitched leader gets today. I don't buy the "gassed" argument for a minute.. what I do buy is the Players Union, and Pussy Pitchers who gross millions of dollars a year.. now they have that new stat.. a "quality start", LOL.. Hell, in the 70's you would be derided for what passes as a "quality start" today.

[xtrem]

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

I've been asking that for 20 years or more.. it happens all the time, take out a Starter who is pitching well, new guy can't find the plate, gets whacked. dumbest metric in MLB, # of pitches.. fuck, when I was a kid, Wilbur Wood pitched both games of a double-header, complete games in both. Fergie Jenkins would go 50% more innings, year after year, than the top innings pitched leader gets today. I don't buy the "gassed" argument for a minute.. what I do buy is the Players Union, and Pussy Pitchers who gross millions of dollars a year.. now they have that new stat.. a "quality start", LOL.. Hell, in the 70's you would be derided for what passes as a "quality start" today.

Forgot about that. I think he lost both games.

Now it's a big deal for six out saves like it's something specIal.

Gossage routinely had multiple inning saves.

[Chung Tran]

last night was a great example.. Morrow comes in for the Dodgers, got the shit beat out of him.. 7 pitches, gave up 2 homers, a double, a single, and a wild pitch.. all that in 7 pitches! because the Fucking Manager thought it was time for a relief pitcher.. just automatic, doesn't matter what the guy before him was doing, bring in Morrow.

which brings me to ask.. what the Hell happened to Bullpen Coaches and Catchers? it used to be they would evaluate the pitcher warming up, and call to the dugout.. "nope, he has no movement on the Slider".. nobody decides anymore, it's lefty vs. lefty, reliever after 90 pitches.. that kind of shit. the algorithm makes the "decision".

[Chung Tran]

Wilbur Wood.. before the advent of the Pussy Pitcher.

https://www.fangraphs.com/tht/tht-li...came-a-legend/

[DEAR_JOHN]

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

last night was a great example.. Morrow comes in for the Dodgers, got the shit beat out of him.. 7 pitches, gave up 2 homers, a double, a single, and a wild pitch.. all that in 7 pitches! because the Fucking Manager thought it was time for a relief pitcher.. just automatic, doesn't matter what the guy before him was doing, bring in Morrow.

This is real easy to recognize after the fact. Most managers go by a gut feeling and apparently Dave Roberts rolled the dice with Morrow, which came back and bit him in the ass. Look at McHugh, pitched great against the Yankees getting outs when nobody else could. Last night McHugh got bitch-slapped. Each night a pitcher pitches doesn't mean what he did before mattered at all, it's how he does on that night.

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

Wilbur Wood.. before the advent of the Pussy Pitcher.

https://www.fangraphs.com/tht/tht-li...came-a-legend/

This is a bad analogy because Wood threw the knuckle ball which isn't anywhere as bad on the arm as throwing fastballs, curves, and sliders.

.......and yes, I pitched for one summer in a recreational league. I did OK with the fast ball, wasn't dominate, but got my share of outs. I was a thrower, not a pitcher. The only 'curve' or change up I threw probably came down to earth when Skylab did. There was no ice, no trainers, just about 6 teams of guys playing baseball vs. slow pitch softball. I also played around 3 years of fast pitch softball. When you got a hit in baseball or fast pitch softball, you felt like you accomplished something, instead of getting a single in slow pitch softball which was a ho-hum experience.

[Chung Tran]

Originally Posted by DEAR_JOHN

Each night a pitcher pitches doesn't mean what he did before mattered at all, it's how he does on that night.



This is a bad analogy because Wood threw the knuckle ball which isn't anywhere as bad on the arm as throwing fastballs, curves, and sliders.

yes, and that goes back to "why take out a Starting Pitcher who is throwing well, and bring in an unknown who you have no idea what stuff he has"? true about Wilbur Wood, BUT the fact remains that Bob Gibson, Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins, even a flame-thrower like Nolan Ryan pitched far more innings in the 1970's, than your top innings pitchers do today.. which makes my Pussy Pitchers remark valid

[DEAR_JOHN]

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

yes, and that goes back to "why take out a Starting Pitcher who is throwing well, and bring in an unknown who you have no idea what stuff he has"? true about Wilbur Wood, BUT the fact remains that Bob Gibson, Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins, even a flame-thrower like Nolan Ryan pitched far more innings in the 1970's, than your top innings pitchers do today.. which makes my Pussy Pitchers remark valid

Yes, about the great ones that's true. But you only mentioned the great ones which is only strengthening yourcause instead of including the every day pitcher.

About the modern pitchers, is it them or the manager who's trying to protect his pitchers from overuse? Give me a pitcher who basically says to get out of his way and let him pitch. Then again it's well known that on the 3rd time around, the hitters know more about the pitcher. In essence, throw different types of pitchers against the same batters. Start off with a starting right hander, then bring in a left hander throwing curves and off speed junk, then bring in a flame thrower.

And as critical as us Astro fans are of our bullpen performance, just remember that the highly touted Dodger bullpen isn't faring any better. On two of our wins, the highly respected 'best closer in the national league' couldn't hold a lead.

However if I see Giles coming in at any point of the world series, I will be throwing the TV remote control at the TV.

[Chung Tran]

Originally Posted by DEAR_JOHN

Yes, about the great ones that's true. But you only mentioned the great ones which is only strengthening yourcause instead of including the every day pitcher.

the beginning of the Modern Era of the workhorse relief pitchers began in 1974, when Mike Marshall of the Dodgers appeared in 108 games! that was unreal at the time, Rollie Fingers and others soon followed.. but let's flip back a year, to 1973, and look at the top innings pitched leaders.. in 1973, you had 11 pitchers who reached 293 innings or more.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...-leaders.shtml

in 2017, the top innings pitcher (Sale, for the Boston Red Sox) pitched 214 innings.. enormous statistical difference.. I didn't single out a few top pitchers, this metric extended across the entire league.

[DEAR_JOHN]

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

the beginning of the Modern Era of the workhorse relief pitchers began in 1974, when Mike Marshall of the Dodgers appeared in 108 games! that was unreal at the time, Rollie Fingers and others soon followed.. but let's flip back a year, to 1973, and look at the top innings pitched leaders.. in 1973, you had 11 pitchers who reached 293 innings or more.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...-leaders.shtml

in 2017, the top innings pitcher (Sale, for the Boston Red Sox) pitched 214 innings.. enormous statistical difference.. I didn't single out a few top pitchers, this metric extended across the entire league.

Good post, makes sense.

However my point is that todays modern pitcher may not want to come out, however that's the managers decision. I guarantee you that tons of todays pitchers would love to pitch a complete game. I still say the managers want to protect their pitchers arms, so they don't use them as much.

[bbkid]

Originally Posted by DEAR_JOHN

Good post, makes sense.

However my point is that todays modern pitcher may not want to come out, however that's the managers decision. I guarantee you that tons of todays pitchers would love to pitch a complete game. I still say the owners, upper management, share holders and managers want to protect their pitchers arms, so they don't use them as much.

Fixed. End of argument.

[VitaMan]

What's the point then of a 9 inning game ?

They need to make baseball games 7 innings now, so the players can actually play the entire game, and not suffer.

[DEAR_JOHN]

Originally Posted by VitaMan

What's the point then of a 9 inning game ?

They need to make baseball games 7 innings now, so the players can actually play the entire game, and not suffer.

Do you know anything at all about sports? You sure as hell don't post like it.