False arguments

[essence]

Every culture has some aspects wherein an outsider thinks they are completely irrational, but the insiders think they are normal. Hence I am not going to argue the 2nd amendment. To do so would be futile, and would ignore the historical background and the innate sense of individuality, and a special sense of the relationship between the individual and the government.

There is a very powerful 'group-think' in any culture, whereby beliefs are reinforced by peer pressure, and any counter argument is treated with great defenciveness.

The real issue in these debates is how to get different groups with such strong emotionally charged and irrational arguments to come together on any common ground.

However, I can identify false arguments, of which many seem to abound.

I will not refute any in detail, but at least can start to list some.

1. Guns do not kill people, people kill people.

Of course, but reduced access to the instruments of violence will reduce the opportunities.

2. Cars kill many more people, and we don't ban cars.

False analogy. Cars have many positive benefits. Banning cars is not an option. Cars are heavily regulated and we have lots of laws to try to reduce car deaths.

3. Millions of people own guns and don;t kill people.

False argument. The fact that 99% of gun owners are responsible and don;t kill people is irrelevant, the issue is the 1% who have access and are disturbed or violent.

4. Violent films/games and banned substances do not affect 99% of the people, so we shouldn't ban them.

False argument again, the issue is the 1% who are vulnerable. Same as alcohol, most people enjoy it and it enhances their lives, but 1% are severely affected.

5. 2nd amendment is sacrosanct, so we have the right to whatever arms we want.

2nd amendment never said any citizen can have a store of scud missiles, so don;t hide behind it. A sensible control of arms, and limits on the form of arms, does not violate 2nd amendment. 2nd amendment is not the holy bible.

6. I love my guns

Enough said.

7. We should arm and train teachers, cinema attendants, etc. just like Israel

What????!!!! Again, false analogy, situation in Israel is completely different. Nobody would be concerned if a girl's school in Afganistan had some armed soldiers protecting it, but this is America.

8. There are more gun deaths in Mexico than US.

Where do the guns come from? US. Is mexico the example US wants to compare itself to?

9. It is irrelevant that every other civilised western country has far fewer gun deaths.

OK, stay isolated, ignore the rest of the world, it doesn't fit with your belief system.

10. More people die of heart disease than guns.

OK, but what is your solution for heart disease? The fact that something else is worse does not mean you cannot do something to improve the issue under discussion. You migh as well say you will not take any medical advice because heart disease is most likely to get you.

11. I need automatic or semi automatic arms for my hunting.

What???

12. I need automatic or semi automatic arms in case my home is robbed.

Please let me know where you live so I don;t come knock on your door at Halloween.

13. Statistics show that tightening gun control results in increased gun deaths.

Statistics can be manipulated to justify anything. Show me the independent analysis and demonstrate the causal relationship, and ensure there is no confounding effect.

14. You will never get the two sides to agree on anything.

Never say never.

15. We already have tight laws on purchase of guns and how they are managed.

The perpetrators seem to have no problem getting their hands on arms purchased by others, and not kept under lock and key.

16. Arms are an effective disincentive to robbery, robberies in the US tend to take place when a house is unoccupied.

Some merit in that argument, but it doesn;t lead to a justification for automatic weapons or easy access. But does it take account of the 10,000 gun deaths a year?

17. I love my guns

Cock sucker.

18. There are many more to list, but I will leave it there, I have a life and work to do.


I'm not suggesting any solutions, there are no easy solutions, I've been robbed twice facing the barrel of a gun (and I managed the situation, if I had had a gun myself and drawn it I would almost certainly be dead), but the justifications for continued access to high end arms leaves many of us stupified.

[essence]

So nobody can refute my refutations, or add to my list of false arguments?

[Yssup Rider]

No, I find most of them to be spot on.

Most of these 'arguments' aren't arguments, though. They're the excuses that many people make for not examining the way the gun laws are enforced.

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by essence

So nobody can refute my refutations, or add to my list of false arguments?

The second amendment was added to the Constitution to insure that the people could defend themselves from a tyranical government if it became necessary. An armed populace is the last safegaurd of liberty.

The American people freed themselves from tyranny once before. We were able to defeat the British because we were armed.

Of course there is a downside to the ready availability of guns in America. Like everything in life it's a trade off. I'm willing to tolerate the downside of gun ownership because I think our liberty is worth it.

[CuteOldGuy]

Originally Posted by essence

Every culture has some aspects wherein an outsider thinks they are completely irrational, but the insiders think they are normal. Hence I am not going to argue the 2nd amendment. To do so would be futile, and would ignore the historical background and the innate sense of individuality, and a special sense of the relationship between the individual and the government.

There is a very powerful 'group-think' in any culture, whereby beliefs are reinforced by peer pressure, and any counter argument is treated with great defenciveness.

The real issue in these debates is how to get different groups with such strong emotionally charged and irrational arguments to come together on any common ground.

However, I can identify false arguments, of which many seem to abound.

I will not refute any in detail, but at least can start to list some.

1. Guns do not kill people, people kill people.

Of course, but reduced access to the instruments of violence will reduce the opportunities. Reduce access to instruments of violence. Imagine playing baseball with tennis rackets. Anything can be an instrument of violence. It takes a person to make it so.

2. Cars kill many more people, and we don't ban cars.

False analogy. Cars have many positive benefits. Banning cars is not an option. Cars are heavily regulated and we have lots of laws to try to reduce car deaths. So are guns. Guns are very regulated, and do provide good in many circumstances.

3. Millions of people own guns and don;t kill people.

False argument. The fact that 99% of gun owners are responsible and don;t kill people is irrelevant, the issue is the 1% who have access and are disturbed or violent. False argument? So all law-abiding people need to be punished because of a lunatic or a criminal? Some guy drives drunk, do we take away all cars? Somebody stabs someone, do we take away all knives?

4. Violent films/games and banned substances do not affect 99% of the people, so we shouldn't ban them. How is that a false argument? In fact, the percentage of people who watch violent films and DO NOT commit crimes is greater than 99%. You want all movies to be Bambi, and all video games to be Pong?

False argument again, the issue is the 1% who are vulnerable. Same as alcohol, most people enjoy it and it enhances their lives, but 1% are severely affected. Bullshit. Remember when we tried to prohibit alcohol? Crime increased.

5. 2nd amendment is sacrosanct, so we have the right to whatever arms we want. We already know your opinion of our "fucking Constitution" so don't even go there.

2nd amendment never said any citizen can have a store of scud missiles, so don;t hide behind it. A sensible control of arms, and limits on the form of arms, does not violate 2nd amendment. 2nd amendment is not the holy bible. It's not, but it's also not up to a Brit to decide.

6. I love my guns

Enough said. What's wrong with having a hobby? Like target shooting, skeet shooting, hunting, or even defending yourself?

7. We should arm and train teachers, cinema attendants, etc. just like Israel

What????!!!! Again, false analogy, situation in Israel is completely different. Nobody would be concerned if a girl's school in Afganistan had some armed soldiers protecting it, but this is America. Don't lecture us about America. You're not an American.

8. There are more gun deaths in Mexico than US.

Where do the guns come from? US. Is mexico the example US wants to compare itself to? And Mexico has strict gun laws. They are ignored, and in fact, our current regime gives the Mexicans guns they want to outlaw here. Go figure.

9. It is irrelevant that every other civilised western country has far fewer gun deaths.

OK, stay isolated, ignore the rest of the world, it doesn't fit with your belief system. America was great because America was different from the rest of the world. We don't want to be the rest of the world. We want to be America. Remember the school in Norway? How'd that work out?

10. More people die of heart disease than guns.

OK, but what is your solution for heart disease? The fact that something else is worse does not mean you cannot do something to improve the issue under discussion. You migh as well say you will not take any medical advice because heart disease is most likely to get you. Whoever said this as a reason for keeping guns legal? I think you made this up.

11. I need automatic or semi automatic arms for my hunting.

What??? Why do you get to decide what people do?

12. I need automatic or semi automatic arms in case my home is robbed.

Please let me know where you live so I don;t come knock on your door at Halloween. I don't want you at my door. How many deaths have occurred on Halloween when Trick or Treaters have been shot? Strawman Alert!

13. Statistics show that tightening gun control results in increased gun deaths.

Statistics can be manipulated to justify anything. Show me the independent analysis and demonstrate the causal relationship, and ensure there is no confounding effect. Check out Australia.

14. You will never get the two sides to agree on anything.

Never say never. What compromise is there between liberty and tyranny?

15. We already have tight laws on purchase of guns and how they are managed.

The perpetrators seem to have no problem getting their hands on arms purchased by others, and not kept under lock and key. And they will still be able to do that.

16. Arms are an effective disincentive to robbery, robberies in the US tend to take place when a house is unoccupied.

Some merit in that argument, but it doesn;t lead to a justification for automatic weapons or easy access. But does it take account of the 10,000 gun deaths a year? If it's your house being robbed, you may or may not want a gun. It should be up to you.

17. I love my guns

Cock sucker. Dipshit

18. There are many more to list, but I will leave it there, I have a life and work to do. Sure you do. Like making other stuff up.


I'm not suggesting any solutions, there are no easy solutions, I've been robbed twice facing the barrel of a gun (and I managed the situation, if I had had a gun myself and drawn it I would almost certainly be dead), but the justifications for continued access to high end arms leaves many of us stupified.

You've proven your stupification over and over again. Please stay in Britain, and let the Americans sort this out.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by essence

Every culture has some aspects wherein an outsider thinks they are completely irrational, but the insiders think they are normal. Hence I am not going to argue the 2nd amendment. To do so would be futile, and would ignore the historical background and the innate sense of individuality, and a special sense of the relationship between the individual and the government.

There is a very powerful 'group-think' in any culture, whereby beliefs are reinforced by peer pressure, and any counter argument is treated with great defenciveness.

The real issue in these debates is how to get different groups with such strong emotionally charged and irrational arguments to come together on any common ground.

However, I can identify false arguments, of which many seem to abound.

I will not refute any in detail, but at least can start to list some.

1. Guns do not kill people, people kill people. A valid truism.

Of course, but reduced access to the instruments of violence will reduce the opportunities. Guns are heavily regulated in Mexico, and yet the murder rate is as high as it is in the U.S., essence.

2. Cars kill many more people, and we don't ban cars.

False analogy. Cars have many positive benefits. Banning cars is not an option. Cars are heavily regulated and we have lots of laws to try to reduce car deaths.

3. Millions of people own guns and don;t kill people. A fact.

False argument. The fact that 99% of gun owners are responsible and don;t kill people is irrelevant, the issue is the 1% who have access and are disturbed or violent. You’re the one with the “false argument”, essence. Your solutions regarding guns are equivalent to issuing all drivers a speeding citation because a portion of the driving population speeds. Punishing all for the trangressions of the few is a hallmark of a totalitarian society, essence.

4. Violent films/games and banned substances do not affect 99% of the people, so we shouldn't ban them.

False argument again, the issue is the 1% who are vulnerable. Same as alcohol, most people enjoy it and it enhances their lives, but 1% are severely affected. So now you want to reenact prohibition, essence? Didn't you study how well that worked, essence?

5. 2nd amendment is sacrosanct, so we have the right to whatever arms we want. Your statement is mere specious hyperbole; thus, ridiculous, essence. Talk about your "false arguments", essence.

2nd amendment never said any citizen can have a store of scud missiles, so don;t hide behind it. A sensible control of arms, and limits on the form of arms, does not violate 2nd amendment. 2nd amendment is not the holy bible. More specious hyperbole and just as ridiculous, essence.

6. I love my guns And everyone thought you were advocating violating the 2nd Amendment, essence.

Enough said. And yet you didn’t stop, essence.

7. We should arm and train teachers, cinema attendants, etc. just like Israel

What????!!!! Again, false analogy, situation in Israel is completely different. Nobody would be concerned if a girl's school in Afganistan had some armed soldiers protecting it, but this is America.

8. There are more gun deaths in Mexico than US. Another fact, essence.

Where do the guns come from? US. Is mexico the example US wants to compare itself to? Mexico has the laws that you are advocating, essence.


9. It is irrelevant that every other civilised western country has far fewer gun deaths. Every “western country” you cite figures for comparison has a smaller geographic area and a substantially smaller and more homogenous population, essence.

OK, stay isolated, ignore the rest of the world, it doesn't fit with your belief system. Keep your blinders on and remain ignorant, essence.

10. More people die of heart disease than guns.

OK, but what is your solution for heart disease? The fact that something else is worse does not mean you cannot do something to improve the issue under discussion. You migh as well say you will not take any medical advice because heart disease is most likely to get you.

11. I need automatic or semi automatic arms for my hunting. More specious hyperbole and still ridiculous, essence.

What??? It’s your ridiculous post, essence.

12. I need automatic or semi automatic arms in case my home is robbed. More specious hyperbole and still ridiculous, essence.

Please let me know where you live so I don;t come knock on your door at Halloween. At your age, you should know better than to go "trick-or-treating", essence!

13. Statistics show that tightening gun control results in increased gun deaths.

Statistics can be manipulated to justify anything. Show me the independent analysis and demonstrate the causal relationship, and ensure there is no confounding effect. One side is using “statistics”, and your side is using specious hyperbole, essence. Guess which one is more valid, essence?

14. You will never get the two sides to agree on anything.

Never say never.

15. We already have tight laws on purchase of guns and how they are managed. There ARE thousands of laws regulating gun purchases and ownership, essence.

The perpetrators seem to have no problem getting their hands on arms purchased by others, and not kept under lock and key. Criminals don’t obey laws, essence. And you claim you’re educated!!! Tsk, tsk, tsk.

16. Arms are an effective disincentive to robbery, robberies in the US tend to take place when a house is unoccupied.

Some merit in that argument, but it doesn;t lead to a justification for automatic weapons or easy access. But does it take account of the 10,000 gun deaths a year? You’re still proffering specious hyperbole, essence.

17. I love my guns

Cock sucker. Yeah, you are, essence.

18. There are many more to list, but I will leave it there, I have a life and work to do.

I'm not suggesting any solutions, there are no easy solutions, I've been robbed twice facing the barrel of a gun (and I managed the situation, if I had had a gun myself and drawn it I would almost certainly be dead), but the justifications for continued access to high end arms leaves many of us stupified. Your OP POV was stupid to start with, essence. That you are still “stupefied” is not remarkable, essence.

.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

You've proven your stupification over and over again. Please stay in Britain, and let the Americans sort this out.

+1

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

The second amendment was added to the Constitution to insure that the people could defend themselves from a tyranical government if it became necessary. An armed populace is the last safegaurd of liberty.

The American people freed themselves from tyranny once before. We were able to defeat the British because we were armed.

Of course there is a downside to the ready availability of guns in America. Like everything in life it's a trade off. I'm willing to tolerate the downside of gun ownership because I think our liberty is worth it.

Yeah, and we freed ourselves from the tyranny of the liberal Republicans by splitting the country, too.

An armed populace ... that's the way to go!

[TheDaliLama]

I believe I was born with the right to own a weapon to use as a tool and to defend myself and my property.

The 2nd amendment just guarantees that right.

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by TheDaliLama

I believe I was born with the right to own a weapon to use as a tool and to defend myself and my property.

The 2nd amendment just guarantees that right.

How do you use a weapon as a tool?

I sometimes use my tool as a weapon...

[CuteOldGuy]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

I sometimes use my tool as a weapon...

That's good to know. My watch needs a new battery.

[TheDaliLama]

i got some buttons that need to be sewn back on.

[Whirlaway]

"You can't have inalienable rights life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness – if you can’t defend yourself and preserve life."

- Mark Levine

[WhoAreWe]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

No, I find most of them to be spot on.

Most of these 'arguments' aren't arguments, though. They're the excuses that many people make for not examining the way the gun laws are enforced.

Keep Kiss Ass, You Do IT So Well... Ask The President, He Might Give You A Job In Washington.

[essence]

You seem to miss the bit where I said:

I'm not suggesting any solutions, there are no easy solutions.

I did not suggest any solutions, and CoG et al make the normal mistake of putting words into my mouth.

I neither propose a ban on alcohol nor on ownership of guns.

I am simply pointing out the illogicality of the raw arguments.

What is really sad is how entrenched the debate is, and CoG confirms this:

What compromise is there between liberty and tyranny?

Sad, really. CoG started so well.

IBH and TDL are not worth debating with.

Whirlaway just dishes out empty rhetoric.

Remember, I choose to spend a lot of my time in the US, I am not a disinterested outsider.

[essence]

OK, let me take one example, I don;t have the figures, but let me try.

Mexico has tight gun controls yet has more gun deaths per thousand population than the US. Hence tighter gun controls will not reduce deaths in the US.

This argument is clearly full of holes, the point is that illegal guns are easily accesisible in Mexico, and most of them come from the US.

So please don't make these over simplistic arguments.

The basic problem is that the US is in a hole with the plethora of guns, and it is very difficult to get out of that hole.

There was a similar problem during the troubles in Northern Ireland. reconciliation has done wonders, and I assume (I don;t know) that gun amnesties etc. have reduced the number of arms on the streets.

Of course, you can argue whether an amnesty with criminals is possible. But circulation of ammunition could be controlled?

If you are in a hole, stop digging. If you do dig, make sure the shit doesn;t fall on your head.

No easy solutions, but do not insult our intelligence by making up stupid arguments to preserve the status quo.