Another health care thread.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Perhaps from another perspective.


I spend generally $5 k a year for health care.
I have a son that rides the short bus with 2wd40 air conditioning.
If someone needs an MRI we can get one within a week.
Will the Dem's reform cost me more?
Will the doc's office be more crowded?
Will people still want to be doctors?
How will it effect me and my family.
I don't give a flying fuck through a rolling doughnut if the deficit goes up.
Will my taxes go up and service go down?


It's like looking into a beautiful woman's face and saying. “Lie to me. Tell me you love me.”

[atlcomedy]

Not to encourage another thread on hc, but.....

I think this guy's thoughts are pretty typical: "Will I still get quality care & what will the immediate impact be on my checkbook?"

I have to assume the $5k is out of pocket & doesn't include his employer's contribution to his health care. If not, I'd like to meet him. In fact Congress should meet him.

[Marcus Aurelius]

It does not include the MAN'S contribution.
The man being the employer.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

Perhaps from another perspective.


I spend generally $5 k a year for health care.
I have a son that rides the short bus with 2wd40 air conditioning.
If someone needs an MRI we can get one within a week.
Will the Dem's reform cost me more?
Will the doc's office be more crowded?
Will people still want to be doctors?
How will it effect me and my family.
I don't give a flying fuck through a rolling doughnut if the deficit goes up.
Will my taxes go up and service go down?


It's like looking into a beautiful woman's face and saying. “Lie to me. Tell me you love me.”

I don't think anyone really knows. So what we're going on is blind faith (and I know for a crowd that doesn't have much faith to begin with, this is a tough sell).

However, it seems to me that the greatest country on earth can accomplish this feat. All we have to do is screen the greed out of the current HC system. That means eliminating a for profit system in favor of a not-for-profit system. And before anyone objects too quickly...it's been done in the utility industry. Yes, some profits exist, but non-profits exist, too. Let the fight begin.

[atlcomedy]

This is not statistically significant, but just based on a couple handfuls of random conversations with folks the work in Big Corporate America. Not C-Level but mostly various levels of management or professional services.

Overwhelmingly, they seem to naively believe that whatever happens their employer won't leave their current plan for whatever the government comes up with. It goes along the lines of, "You know I may bitch about this or that about XYZ Corp., but when push comes to shove they've really treated me pretty well....I can't believe they'd ever drop our health plan....."

Naive.

I say that because I think there are a lot of folks out there that really haven't internalized what any government healthcare might mean to them. They look at it through the lens of what it means to "the rest of the people." -- kinda of like how changes to welfare or unemployment benefits would be -- you know stuff that impacts "other people"

[Marcus Aurelius]

If it goes through employers will drop theirs imho.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

If it goes through employers will drop theirs imho.

Like a hot potato.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Like a teenagers tank top. Or is it the Chivas, I can't remember.

[John Bull]

And anyone who thinks a "non-profit" health care system would produce the medical innovations or even the health care providers at a level we now enjoy needs to look at what is happening in almost all the countries that have "universal".
There is nothing like the free market system to produce innovation. And there is nothing like the profit motive to produce highly skilled providers in any industry.

[atlcomedy]

John, I tend to agree, but I'm not too worried about the profit motivation coming out of HC here in the States. Just look at 2 of the (mostly) gov't run sectors of our economy (which are ostensibly "non-profit"), defense & education. There are still a lot of people making a lot of $ off of those.

So if you take a whole supply chain view, there will always be plenty of value to be extracted.

[John Bull]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

So if you take a whole supply chain view, there will always be plenty of value to be extracted.

I fear the government will be the entity doing the extracting.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by John Bull

And anyone who thinks a "non-profit" health care system would produce the medical innovations or even the health care providers at a level we now enjoy needs to look at what is happening in almost all the countries that have "universal".
There is nothing like the free market system to produce innovation. And there is nothing like the profit motive to produce highly skilled providers in any industry.

Profit motive can drive the train on the R&D side of the shop. However, direct care is pretty routine, and innovation occurs on the R&D side.

There is more to producing a highly skilled worker than just profit. Most good workers do their jobs because they love what they do and are really good at it. This is true from high school janitors to high school teachers to nurses and doctors.

I think the real scare in the health care industry comes straight out of greed. Quite frankly, doctors and hospitals are afraid that any new system of health care will prevent them from continuing to make their obscene profits. And a new system should do this.

What we really need is a system that provides doctors and hospitals with a recognized profit (or non-profit). We currently do this with property insurance and utilities in this country. The system should be expanded to health care.

[Dasani]

Honestly... I want to say, to you, No. However realistically, Yes.
That's why, I feel, there should be, More hair pulling.
Hey, but I couldn't, make it, to Washington this term.
:

[John Bull]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

Profit motive can drive the train on the R&D side of the shop. However, direct care is pretty routine, and innovation occurs on the R&D side.

There is more to producing a highly skilled worker than just profit. Most good workers do their jobs because they love what they do and are really good at it. This is true from high school janitors to high school teachers to nurses and doctors.

It's been shown in all the countries that have "universal" health care where the govt. pays the providers - not to include the pure dictatorships who force people into professions - that the number of providers eventually drops to the point where there aren't enough to staff hospitals and there aren't enough to provide timely service.

I'm reminded of a definition of insanity: Where one keeps trying the same thing hoping for a different result.

This is a great definition of socialized medicine.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by John Bull

It's been shown in all the countries that have "universal" health care where the govt. pays the providers - not to include the pure dictatorships who force people into professions - that the number of providers eventually drops to the point where there aren't enough to staff hospitals and there aren't enough to provide timely service.

I'm reminded of a definition of insanity: Where one keeps trying the same thing hoping for a different result.

This is a great definition of socialized medicine.

Actually, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. My brother's wife grew up in England, and they lived there for a couple of years. Both say the health care system there is wonderful. Now, I have no first hand experience, but I take their word for it...especially over people I don't know or people I know who have agendas.

I also had a teacher from Chile. She said the health care there was superior also.

There is other anecdotal evidence. Nevertheless, I'm convinced that what is done will in other places (I believe France to be uniformly the best and they've been doing it for decades), can be done better by the U.S. And we must do better. After all, even though the Republicans keep saying we have the "best health care system in the world," it is not supported by the facts. We do not have the oldest population. We have a relatively high infant mortality rate. There are other markers.

However, I've said my piece in this thread. And don't want to be assessed points. So, I'll say goodbye.