NSNC two way street

[ControlFreak]

NCNS this is a two way street. I constantly read how upset providers are and how upset hobbyist are. Many hobbyist brag about having a Plan B in case of a NCNS. Now I am not going to take sides because I believe both sides are wrong many times. I would very much like to have an open discussion about the topic and see if there is a way to eliminate this from happening to either side. I can honestly tell you I have never in my recollection NCNS a provider. I can honestly say I have only had it happen to me one time. Basically I have never seen the lady in question. I can honestly say we have both put it behind us and will be getting together shortly. Now let us all realize everyone’s time is valuable either financially or for a quiet time. We all have to recognize that shit can happen and it can happen on either side. Now with this basic scenario and please feel free to expand it, let’s see if we can come together with a satisfactory guide line to follow. It is a difficult topic with many people having strong opinions each direction. I would hope that we can all be civil with each other and reach agreement that everyone can live with. Bear in mind if both sides are unhappy with the result, it is probably a very fair conclusion. Now let the games begin and only ground rule is being civil.

[guest041110]

The question you have asked is a valid one. I know of only one way to remove this as an issue but I do not believe that certain folks in this world will do it. The simple solution is the best one: Have personal integrity.

That means you are responsible for your actions and take others into consideration before you do, or not do, something. This solution works for both sides since cell phones are ubiquitous now and just about everyone in this realm has one. It is nothing to make a call before an appointment if something comes up but it does take someone who is paying attention to the details and who also has personal integrity to do what I have just described.

If you cannot tell, I follow the KISS principle.

[guest040711-1]

Well I've had more than one NCNS in my Hunt, I do not get all puffy and self righteous I just look for the next one to feed my addiction for Strange.

I agree 100% with LD, only personal integrity will stop the poor behaviour. The same applies to sharing LR info, being a WK and sharing info like access to gain favor is a sign of NO personal integrity.

FYI I've had to cancel a few planned appointments due to unforseen business or personal reasons, I've never NCNS.

[ControlFreak]

The personal integrity is no question the answer, but we all know that integrity is lacking in a considerable number of both providers and hobbyist. Now I ask, if you are NCNS by a provider, how to you feel about a simple post in the Coed section just stating a simple fact for the record. Example ( I had an appointment with Provider XYZ at 2:00 PM and she NCNS) Maybe a section at the beginning of Coed that threads such as this could be posted for all to see. Maybe there could even be a reward if you are bad about, but if you are clean for six months your old NCNS will be removed. If a hobbyist NCNS a provider she does the same thing. There could be one thread for providers to post their NCNS and one for the guys to post in. Now the guys can’t post in the ladies, but can read the posts and the ladies can’t post in the men’s but can read the posts. Bear with me in my line of thought. If your handle starts to show up very often, providers will know and not make an appointment with you. If they do, it is their problem. If a provider NCNS and name starts to show up often, I think guys will stop scheduling with her. Again if they continue to see the provider it is there problem if she NCNS. Basically this type of approach has to be as drama free as possible, but it could make people think twice about it. Now I am not talking about some calling an hour ahead of time to cancel. This is going to happen and everyone should accept that.

I guess to make this work, only men can post in one on ladies and the ladies can have a place to post about the men, but each can read but can only post to their respective thread. No one else can comment or refute the simple He NCNS me at XYZ time, end of post. That eliminates WK from coming to the defense because no one else can post about you or for you. Will it work, I don't know, but I think it is a major problem for both sides of the issue, saying it can't be resolved, I cannot agree with you. There is a way to solve everything.

[guest041110]

CF, I perceive what your point is in your last post but it still comes back to personal integrity. The reason why I write that is if either side lacks integrity then what is to prevent them from posting a false NCNS alert due to their emotions such as a provider being bent out of shape that her ATF is seeing another provider or a hobbyist that does the same thing for the same reason, i.e. his ATF is seeing someone he either has an issue with or improperly thinks she is his girlfriend?

See my point? You really cannot get around personal integrity being the key point in this argument which also means one has to be honest in their actions. Anything short of that will be corrupted and doom to failure if it is implemented.

Of course, that is my opinion and whatdoiknow, right?

[goodlookinhottie]

That means you are responsible for your actions and take others into consideration before you do, or not do, something. This solution works for both sides since cell phones are ubiquitous now and just about everyone in this realm has one. It is nothing to make a call before an appointment if something comes up but it does take someone who is paying attention to the details and who also has personal integrity to do what I have just described.


Its simple geez.... If you cant make it , you just cant make it. The way the appt was made is how it could be rescheduled.

Sincerely,

[ControlFreak]

Integrity is key no argument, but if this is set so a provider can harass a hobbyist and she makes a bunch of posts against the same guy and no one else does, it shows her to be what she is and exposes her so no one would want to see her. Nothing is perfect, but there has to be something better than all of the drama now. It is affecting everyone as status quo. Look when you research providers to see, do you let one bad review affect you if there are 10 good ones? I think this will be the same. I don’t want ECCIE to be hobby police, but if an abuse shows up as you suggest and I think it could they could remedy the situation by some action. Honestly, I think this type of thread would separate ECCIE from the other sites and make both hobbyist and providers want to belong. This can be a resource for both sides.

[guest041110]

Hmmm… I would counter that in the end, nobody will really care if provider A was harassing/lying/whatever about hobbyist B. I know from personal experience that when providers act badly, nobody really cares if they think they can get a good lay from the provider in question regardless of how she behaves with others.

I want to make it clear that I am on your side CF as I believe something does need to be done but the unfortunate thing is, I believe where the rubber meets the road is on the hobbyist/provider side rather than on the infrastructure of how one is in this environment. Just like you can’t dictate how a parent rears a child, you can’t force people to take responsibility for their actions in a place where taking personal responsibility generally does not exist and is viewed as a “Que, Sera, Sera” as was mentioned above in different terms.

Now you can make a site that has rules that forces people to agree to take responsibility for their actions and hold them accountable for those actions if they want to continue on the site such as you seem to be suggesting. However, keep in mind that we are discussing a world where most people are already playing hard and fast with the “rules” that society has already laid out and has indicated that what transpires here is illegal and not acceptable in all but one state of this country. My question then becomes: Are you sure you want to do what you are suggesting? Seems to me like that would be like trying to build the Tower of Babel but that is me.

Rather, I think the best solution, if we take having integrity and accountability for ones actions out of the equation for a moment, is to make notes of who is doing what and then decide if you can live with it. All the while not tolerating drama queens who are pushing their agenda while making the rules in such a way that the people who don’t want to play nicely cannot succeed and are dealt with when they don’t play by the rules. Unfortunately, what you have in the above scenario is a continuation of what is currently in place, or some variation there of, with the current “picket fence” and a need for some form of policing those that don’t do what they are supposed to do.

Kind of hard to keep the fox in charge of the hen house when that fox is not playing by his own rules and has no accountability for his actions.

Maybe I am missing something here because I just don’t see how one could do what you are describing by not fully addressing personal integrity and accountability for ones actions.

I am going to get some dinner and think about this a little more since I think I really must be missing something key to your argument CF.

[ControlFreak]

LonesomeDove, we are in total agreement about integrity. But you seem to believe that people cannot be held responsible for their actions. I believe you can teach and may force integrity if need be. Everyone says they like this sight. What besides technological improvements do they like? OK here is a way to consider making it an asset to all members and eliminate drama queens and kings. Basically if you play good and stay out of problems you can play in my sandbox. If you don’t we will expose you. If you can’t get laid because no one will see you, as a provider you go back to BP as a hobbyist you go back to BP. Belonging here should be earned not a right. To stay here you should be responsible and held to a higher standard both sides. I would love to get some input from more ladies. I am sure the more ideas the better opportunity to resolve these types of problems. Now if nobody cares, then don’t bitch about being NCNS. Continue on the same as always just accept it and quit bitching about it.

[Guest030911]

There are some in our community on both sides that make it a habit to stand the other up without the courtesy of a phone call, text, or email. They ruin it for everyone. Let's make a list, hunt them down, and beat their ass.

oops. I didn't exactly stay civil did I?

[1thatgotaway]

I would imagine that if a list was made of all NCNS's we would find that guys bitch about it more, but the ladies get screwed more (no pun intended). It is just not in their best interest to bring it up.

~1TGA

[guest123009]

This problem will never be solved as the turnover in providers is significant and there will always be a new hungry dick that is willing to give them a try.

The only way to bring some semblance of accountability would be if there was some sort of eBay/Amazon type of feedback system and if the money was put into escrow or had a chargeback feature. Just don't see it happening though I have pursued the idea on my own.

[otrdriver]

Why do we always have to make a law, practice etc to solve ONE persons opinion. Personal integrity on both sides. If you have a problem with provider/hobbiyist deal with it like an adult. It should not take one person's bad experience to change policy for all in the commiunity.

[guest041110]

What FMH wrote about there will always be some guy who is looking for the next conquest is true and is in line with what I wrote previously that nobody will care if they think they can get a good lay regardless of how bad the girl behaves with others since all they care about is getting laid.

Otrdriver, you and I are in agreement.

Back to your point CF, it is not so much that they can't be held responsible but that they won't be held responsible given what I wrote in my last post and I quoted here:

Now you can make a site that has rules that forces people to agree to take responsibility for their actions and hold them accountable for those actions if they want to continue on the site such as you seem to be suggesting. However, keep in mind that we are discussing a world where most people are already playing hard and fast with the “rules” that society has already laid out and has indicated that what transpires here is illegal and not acceptable in all but one state of this country. My question then becomes: Are you sure you want to do what you are suggesting? Seems to me like that would be like trying to build the Tower of Babel but that is me.

More to the point, it seems I must have given you the incorrect impression. I do believe people can be held accountable for their actions but that requires effort on the part of the people who are in charge of a particular site. While I am not being disparaging towards ASPD, I will use them as an example since they do present an image of what I have written where the fox is guarding the hen house using the fox's own rules but that same fox may, or may not, follow his rules depending on whether he is in the mood to do so or not. The history over there in how they handle certain things is very well documented based upon years of easily found posts and/or facts where certain problems, like you are suggesting be handled differently on this hypothetical site, were mishandled or not at all.

My point that I did not make clear earlier is that not only does the general crowd of a site have to be held accountable and have personal integrity in what they do but so do the moderators and administrators of a site that we are discussing hypothetically. For ECCIE, I believe the right people are in the right positions making the right decisions. I cannot say the same about ASPD based on facts that I know to be true.

I better understand what it is you are driving towards but I still don't think what you are suggesting is possible given that this world is based upon deception. To anyone who would argue that point consider this: If one is married and they are participating here then...

I think what we need to see is what Owner posted here: http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=1116&postcount= 2. How that thread is relevant to this one is that if one tries to game the system, whatever the game being run happens to be, how the current administration handles that will dictate what is done and how the community on this site, as a whole, benefits from the actions taken. So far, I think the staff here has it together and is doing a bang up job of keeping this site the no drama zone which I am very relieved to see.

Having the infrastructure in place to deal with any folks who participate in the hobby is very important but I am not sure you will have a viable site with the things you are describing unless everyone on it agrees to that and knows if you break the rules, you get exposed REGARDLESS of who you are. That means any rules made have to apply equally to the board's general population as well as to the staff that runs the board where the application of the rules is transparent to all. If there is any favoritism and/or protection, i.e. hiding the issue from folks, of any anyone be it towards a staff member or other participant in the hobby when they screw up by breaking basic hobby rules like outing people, lying about others or whatever else is defined as a rule to go by then it is not a level playing field nor equal treatment of all concerned. Consequentially, you will find at that point nobody will give a damn one way or the other what someone does and we are back to where we are now in this discussion. The reason I did not include a NCNS is because there exists a possibility where there are times when someone could have been unavoidably detained and could not get word out prior to a scheduled appointment although the probability in this day and time is very remote but it still exists. It is only relevant in the aftermath if the offending party does make an effort that is sincere and timely which applies to both providers and hobbyist.

What CPI wrote about others being essentially butts towards others is very true. His statement goes towards my basic point of integrity and accountability as well as that others will do folks wrong just because they can for whatever reason they have at the moment because they think the rules don’t apply to them. Personally, I have always thought people who think the rules did not apply to them because they have physical good looks is a load of bullshit but it is what it is. This hobby is not perfect but it does fill a void for some and creates play time for others.

I have written enough on this and I hope that I made myself clear. I would like to see what others have to write on this subject because I am a curious rat bastard.

[ControlFreak]

I agree with you. I meant people calling people out in the discussion. From all of the threads I have read on both sides, I think it is ridiculous. Up to now all I am seeing from the men with exception of Lonesome Dove are excuses not potential ideas of remedies. Everyone appears to be in denial on the subject. I want to be perfectly clear about the moderators here and at ASPD; I am in no way making this an attack on either group. I see a behavior problem by many participants in the hobby that is problematic to many and should have a solution. I may very well be using rose colored glasses, I admit. I am one who believes there are solutions for everything, and it takes an effort sometimes to resolve. If it takes a rule change or law to make it happen so be it. If people can’t rule themselves, there needs to be a way to correct their conduct. I believe the best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship not a democracy. The KEY WORD is benevolent. The easiest way is to bring attention to the offenders and embarrassment to them seems to work. One big problem is that we operate under a handle, and many abuse their power to intentionally harm others. It’s OK to NCNS because nobody knows me. I am sorry but to me this is BS..