I agree with Piers

[essence]

OK, let me start with some important caveats:

- in many other cases I disagree with Piers and I do not regard his reputation as a journalist highly. He has a history which I find distastful.

- it is, of course, impossible for an outsider to be anything other than an object of hatred, so nothing Piers ever says will ever have any influence. I can go further and say that Piers, or any foreigner, should not engage in this type of discussion, it is not appropriate for an outsider.

- when I first saw the videos and comments, I hesitated to comment, because anything would be swamped by the 'he's British tell him to fuck off' knee jerk. But after watching several times, my views have changed and I can;t disagree with anything he says. Not the right person to say it, but the right things to say, and be angry about.

But, if you put these aspects aside, i find I agree with him. I just wish it came from the mouth of an American citizen, to avoid the irrelevant ad hominem accusations.

Gottlieb appears to be so stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HCE2DXXxWc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SlfRCkZt1A

For those of you who say he's British, he has no right to comment, I say fuck off cunt, listen to his arguments and facts. The fact that he is British is irrelevant, Argue the facts.

Are there US commentators who can argue the issues in such a way? I hope so, I so wish it didn't need a British person. We would not tolerate an American fronting a major news show (although we seem to be happy to install a canadian as the next bank of england governor).

Actually, in the second video, two out of the three interviewees show the normal US sense of common sense, and present the facts. They clearly state the great consensus amongst the US people, and how out of touch the NRA leaders are. Indeed, NRA leaders are accused of enabling mass murder. Rightly.

Listen from 9:30.

Thank god for the vast majority of sensible americans. Fuck the lobbyists.

If a US citizen was vocal about changes in Britain, my reaction would, naturally, be of great defensiveness. But maybe that is my problem, and I should listen. But fact is, an outsider has already lost before they open their mouth. Sad fact of life.

Sorry for the rather confused message, but I am angry about how stupid people can hijack a debate, and I am even more angry about over 10,000 deaths a year.

[joe bloe]

Gun ownership is essentially universal in Switzerland (4.5 million guns 7.9 million people) and yet their gun murder rate is ten times lower than the United States (0.5 per 100,000 compared to 5.0 per 100,000). Your thoughts?

http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the...re-that-works/

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

Your thoughts?

You are kidding, right?

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

You are kidding, right?

Well yes sort of. The left has this simplistic attitude that guns are the problem, period. Of course guns are not the real problem; culture rot is.

[i'va biggen]

Red necks are the problem...LOL

[bojulay]

What a stupid english twit.

He needs to go back to England right away
so his english nanny can change his diapers
while he sucks his thumb and feels more safe.

What a stupid argument he makes, something
like "If the guy would of had different guns less people would have been killed"
or something like that , stupid english twit.

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

Red necks are the problem...LOL

Yeah, there's not enough of them!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAFjBSPUQJk

[essence]

Originally Posted by bojulay

What a stupid english twit.

He needs to go back to England right away
so his english nanny can change his diapers
while he sucks his thumb and feels more safe.

What a stupid argument he makes, something
like "If the guy would of had different guns less people would have been killed"
or something like that , stupid english twit.

Like I say, this just confirms what I said. I said please ignore the fact that he is a Brit, discuss the issues. When you get beyond the emotion, does what he says make sense? Was he right to be emotive?

But no, you rattle like a prat.

Please also note that two of the three panellists generally seemed to agree with him and were equally appalled.

Joe, I do not consider myself to be on the left, nobody is calling for a ban on all guns, Piers made this quite clear, the problem is the general deafness. Piers is certainly far from the left. Some would say he is somewhat to the right of margaret thatcher.

Any problem requires a multitude of solutions.

Indeed, gun deaths are but a symptom, I agree with Joe that there is something wrong with modern culture, why do people (for example) make violent films and why do people watch them? Why can;t they direct their attention to something useful and uplifting like porn?

Of course, violence has always been part of literature (Dostoevsky comes to mind), but a film which is purely about violence? Entertainment? Please.

We become immune after a time, which is the saddest part of all.

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by bojulay

What a stupid english twit.

He needs to go back to England right away
so his english nanny can change his diapers
while he sucks his thumb and feels more safe.

What a stupid argument he makes, something
like "If the guy would of had different guns less people would have been killed"
or something like that , stupid english twit.

The English are still mad we won the Revolutionary War. We won because we all had guns!

[Yssup Rider]

Fucking idiots.

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by essence

Like I say, this just confirms what I said. I said please ignore the fact that he is a Brit, discuss the issues. When you get beyond the emotion, does what he says make sense? Was he right to be emotive?

But no, you rattle like a prat.

Please also note that two of the three panellists generally seemed to agree with him and were equally appalled.

Joe, I do not consider myself to be on the left, nobody is calling for a ban on all guns, Piers made this quite clear, the problem is the general deafness. Piers is certainly far from the left. Some would say he is somewhat to the right of margaret thatcher.

Any problem requires a multitude of solutions.

Indeed, gun deaths are but a symptom, I agree with Joe that there is something wrong with modern culture, why do people (for example) make violent films and why do people watch them? Why can;t they direct their attention to something useful and uplifting like porn?

Of course, violence has always been part of literature (Dostoevsky comes to mind), but a film which is purely about violence? Entertainment? Please.

We become immune after a time, which is the saddest part of all.

So why isn't Switzerland wall to wall carnage? Too busy making cuckoo clocks? Too sleepy from eating too much Swiss chocolate?

"Some would say he is somewhat to the right of margaret thatcher." Seriously? On what? Some might say he's a head of lettuce; they'd be wrong too.

[gnadfly]

Originally Posted by essence

OK, let me start with some important caveats:

....
- when I first saw the videos and comments, I hesitated to comment, because anything would be swamped by the 'he's British tell him to fuck off' knee jerk. But after watching several times, my views have changed and I can;t disagree with anything he says. Not the right person to say it, but the right things to say, and be angry about.

But, if you put these aspects aside, i find I agree with him. I just wish it came from the mouth of an American citizen, to avoid the irrelevant ad hominem accusations.

Isn't Stuart Varney British? Isn't he well-respected or no, because he's on Fox? Henry Kissinger? Selma Hayek? John Lydon? Is Piers an American citizen? If I went over to England and got a TV show and started using it to trample some long affirmed holy English right, what would the reaction be?

Originally Posted by essence

Gottlieb appears to be so stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HCE2DXXxWc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SlfRCkZt1A

For those of you who say he's British, he has no right to comment, I say fuck off cunt, listen to his arguments and facts. The fact that he is British is irrelevant, Argue the facts.

....

Sorry for the rather confused message, but I am angry about how stupid people can hijack a debate, and I am even more angry about over 10,000 deaths a year.

I only listed to the first few minutes of each vid. On the first its my understanding the Bushmaster wasn't used. Piers insists that it is an automatic weapon. On the second vid he correctly identifies it as a semi-automatic weapon.

He asks why the Mother has these weapons. My understanding is because she was a survivalist and believed the world economy was going to collapse. There were a lot of these people back in the last 70s when gold shot thru the roof. Over 500 people were killed in Chicago last year and its getting very little press attention. My guess would be 80% of the shooters got their guns illegally and they are mainly handguns. But here's a more important issue: the police are not going to lift a finger for most of these cases. They know there will be little cooperation and if they go into certain areas of the city for questioning, they will be sniped.

Originally Posted by joe bloe

Gun ownership is essentially universal in Switzerland (4.5 million guns 7.9 million people) and yet their gun murder rate is ten times lower than the United States (0.5 per 100,000 compared to 5.0 per 100,000). Your thoughts?

http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the...re-that-works/

This is a valid question essence. What's your opinion? My opinion is that Switzerland is fairly homogenous society with drug laws that make sense, generally everyone knows a lot of people and a decent economy.

Originally Posted by essence

..

Joe, I do not consider myself to be on the left, nobody is calling for a ban on all guns, Piers made this quite clear, the problem is the general deafness. Piers is certainly far from the left. Some would say he is somewhat to the right of margaret thatcher.

Any problem requires a multitude of solutions.

Indeed, gun deaths are but a symptom, I agree with Joe that there is something wrong with modern culture, why do people (for example) make violent films and why do people watch them? Why can;t they direct their attention to something useful and uplifting like porn?
...

So what are the proposed solutions? There was an link posted on the board to some statistic that showed the US squarely in the middle in the past decade of gun deaths per capita compared to other nations in the world.

You and other keeps saying "They aren't coming for your guns" but they are coming for your guns. In Houston, there were a bunch of accidental killings by kids who found loaded weapons and played with them. I believe it caused a law go into effect putting the parents/guardians in jail. Generally people need to keep there guns under lock and key and for the most part they are. I know mine are.

Here are my solutions:
1) A better US economy
2) Legalization of many classes of drugs

and

3) kicking out Piers Morgan and Simon Cowell

[TGBeldin]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

Gun ownership is essentially universal in Switzerland (4.5 million guns 7.9 million people) and yet their gun murder rate is ten times lower than the United States (0.5 per 100,000 compared to 5.0 per 100,000). Your thoughts?

http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the...re-that-works/

You seriously oversimplify the argument.

It is obviously a COMBINATION of gun availability and attitudes. Changing the gun availability part is one approach--or part of an approach. Not the only one. But the same people who point to a place like Switzerland for gun ownership stats often want no part of the other things that come with being Swiss.

I fund there are extremists on the "no one should have guns" end of the argument, and on the "keep your hands off my armory at all costs" end. As we seem to find on too many arguments, the wackos on the extremes get most the press and have no desire to actually discuss things.

Do you want compulsory military service to go along with your guns? What ARE you willing to give up to keep fewer guns--or fewer unregistered guns--out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them? Clearly stronger penalties for mass murderers has no deterrent value for those who plan on shooting themselves already.

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by TGBeldin

You seriously oversimplify the argument.

It is obviously a COMBINATION of gun availability and attitudes. Changing the gun availability part is one approach--or part of an approach. Not the only one. But the same people who point to a place like Switzerland for gun ownership stats often want no part of the other things that come with being Swiss.

I fund there are extremists on the "no one should have guns" end of the argument, and on the "keep your hands off my armory at all costs" end. As we seem to find on too many arguments, the wackos on the extremes get most the press and have no desire to actually discuss things.

Do you want compulsory military service to go along with your guns? What ARE you willing to give up to keep fewer guns--or fewer unregistered guns--out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them? Clearly stronger penalties for mass murderers has no deterrent value for those who plan on shooting themselves already.

Well actually I wasn't making an argument. I just stated two facts and asked for a comment.

Gun ownership is essentially universal in Switzerland (4.5 million guns 7.9 million people) and yet their gun murder rate is ten times lower than the United States (0.5 per 100,000 compared to 5.0 per 100,000). Your thoughts?

Gun violence is a complex problem. There is no simple answer. There were far fewer restrictions on guns in the forties and fifties and gun crime was much lower. The cities with the strictest gun laws usually have horrific murder rates.

The truth is, it's not possible to confiscate all the guns and the Constitution won't allow it. More than that, the people don't want it.

Gun violence is a symptom of a decaying culture. If we can turn the culture around, we can reduce a multitude of problems including gun violence. Unfortunately, the likelihood of reversing our culture rot is probably not good.

By the way, I've never owned a gun.

[Guest032516]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

Yeah, there's not enough of them!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAFjBSPUQJk

Not enough of them for what?