The Wealthy, The Poor and Taxes

[Rodram]

Whenever you hear that taxes are high and want to know if it's a credible statement? Here is the truth.

If you want to know what party is against the middle class? Here is the truth.

If you want to know how the wealthy and corporations are not paying their fair share? Here is the truth.

If you want to know what party runs on the "No Taxes" platform and has gotten us into this mess? Here is the truth.

If you want to know what Reagan's small government, no taxes mantra has done to his country? Here's your answer:


“Where some people are very wealthy and others have nothing, the result will be either extreme democracy or absolute oligarchy, or despotism will come from either of those excesses.” - Aristotle









[IMG]http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/29136/slide_29136_290506_
large.jpg?1307851571084[/IMG]
1

[sushiguy]

Thank you for the info.

[Rodram]

Originally Posted by sushiguy

Thank you for the info.

You're very welcome sir.

[TexanAtPlay]

The Treasury does take voluntary donations.......feel free to send a couple K's a year on my behalf, will you?

The problem I have is that the central government is following Marxist redistributionalist policies, so fewer resources for capital formation are available. Government does not create wealth, it consumes it.

Milton Friedman had it right, after I went to school they pretty much stopped teaching Capitalism

[Rodram]

Originally Posted by TexanAtPlay

The Treasury does take voluntary donations.......feel free to send a couple K's a year on my behalf, will you?

The problem I have is that the central government is following Marxist redistributionalist policies, so fewer resources for capital formation are available. Government does not create wealth, it consumes it.

Milton Friedman had it right, after I went to school they pretty much stopped teaching Capitalism

What I find fascinating is this blind ideological dogma that reeks of the stench from the neofeudalism and anti-intellectualism preached by sociopaths like Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, Mark Levine, Michael Savage, Neal Boortz just to name a few.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Voltaire
French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778)

"By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell -- and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed.
Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf

The complete and total disconnect from reality and fact based thinking is stunning and ever so evident from the constant drone of bumper sticker declarations like "Marxism","Wealth Redistribution" "Socialism" blah,blah,blah ad nauseam.

Where is your evidence? Where is your empirical data? What is the basis of your claims? Where are your evidence proved facts? How did you come to this conclusion? Where are the links to support your statements?

Do you have anything else to say other than the latest regurgitated vomit fed to you by your corporate overlords?!?

[Rodram]

This is the Milton Friedman Texan refers to and listen to this ASSHOLES bullshit and think about what he is saying to YOU!!

The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits
Milton Friedman
The New York Times Magazine
September 13, 1970

"When I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the "social responsibilities of business in a free-enterprise system," I am reminded of the wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered at the age of 70 that he had been speaking prose all his life. The businessmen believe that they are defending free enterprise when they declaim that business is not concerned "merely" with profit but also with promoting desirable "social" ends; that business has a "social conscience" and takes seriously its responsibilities for providing employment, eliminating discrimination, avoiding pollution and whatever else may be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of reformers. In fact they are--or would be if they or anyone else took them seriously--preaching pure and unadulterated socialism. Businessmen who talk this way are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society these past decades."

So in other words, "FUCK YOU! I want my money and I don't give a shit how I get it even if it takes advantage of your grandma, rapes your bank account, leaves you homeless or costs you your environment or your health I've got mine HAHA!!!"

So someone tell me that this says any different and how we as a society want to live this way!?!

Tell me and the plurality of Americans that don't believe this tripe that UNBRIDLED CAPITALISM is the only means by which we can flourish and survive and why and WHO THE FUCK SAYS SO!?!

Im so sick of these bastards running us over and then telling it's their responsibility to do so!

[pixelwarrior]

Hey Rodram. want to know why the world is fucked?

Prisoner's Dilemma
First published Thu Sep 4, 1997; substantive revision Mon Oct 22, 2007
Tanya and Cinque have been arrested for robbing the Hibernia Savings Bank and placed in separate isolation cells. Both care much more about their personal freedom than about the welfare of their accomplice. A clever prosecutor makes the following offer to each. “You may choose to confess or remain silent. If you confess and your accomplice remains silent I will drop all charges against you and use your testimony to ensure that your accomplice does serious time. Likewise, if your accomplice confesses while you remain silent, they will go free while you do the time. If you both confess I get two convictions, but I'll see to it that you both get early parole. If you both remain silent, I'll have to settle for token sentences on firearms possession charges. If you wish to confess, you must leave a note with the jailer before my return tomorrow morning.”

The “dilemma” faced by the prisoners here is that, whatever the other does, each is better off confessing than remaining silent. But the outcome obtained when both confess is worse for each than the outcome they would have obtained had both remained silent. A common view is that the puzzle illustrates a conflict between individual and group rationality. A group whose members pursue rational self-interest may all end up worse off than a group whose members act contrary to rational self-interest. More generally, if the payoffs are not assumed to represent self-interest, a group whose members rationally pursue any goals may all meet less success than if they had not rationally pursued their goals individually. A closely related view is that the prisoner's dilemma game and its multi-player generalizations model familiar situations in which it is difficult to get rational, selfish agents to cooperate for their common good. Much of the contemporary literature has focused on identifying conditions under which players would or should make the “cooperative” move corresponding to remaining silent. A slightly different interpretation takes the game to represent a choice between selfish behavior and socially desirable altruism. The move corresponding to confession benefits the actor, no matter what the other does, while the move corresponding to silence benefits the other player no matter what that player does. Benefiting oneself is not always wrong, of course, and benefiting others at the expense of oneself is not always morally required, but in the prisoner's dilemma game both players prefer the outcome with the altruistic moves to that with the selfish moves. This observation has led David Gauthier and others to take the Prisoner's Dilemma to say something important about the nature of morality.

Puzzles with the structure of the prisoner's dilemma were devised and discussed by Merrill Flood and Melvin Dresher in 1950, as part of the Rand Corporation's investigations into game theory (which Rand pursued because of possible applications to global nuclear strategy). The title “prisoner's dilemma” and the version with prison sentences as payoffs are due to Albert Tucker, who wanted to make Flood and Dresher's ideas more accessible to an audience of Stanford psychologists. Although Flood and Dresher didn't themselves rush to publicize their ideas in external journal articles, the puzzle attracted widespread attention in a variety of disciplines. Christian Donninger reports that “more than a thousand articles” about it were published in the sixties and seventies. A bibliography (Axelrod and D'Ambrosio) of writings between 1988 and 1994 that pertain to Robert Axelrod's research on the subject lists 209 entries. Since then the flow has shown no signs of abating.

The sections below provide a variety of more precise characterizations of the prisoner's dilemma, beginning with the narrowest and survey some connections with similar games and some applications in philosophy and elsewhere. Particular attention is paid to “evolutionary” versions of the game in which members of a population play one another repeatedly and those who get higher payoffs “reproduce” more rapidly than those who get lower payoffs. ‘Prisoner's dilemma’ is abbreviated as ‘PD’.

[dbbogey]

Dear Rodram the wealthy in this country have come by it in several different ways one smart, two work hard. The people that chose to immigrate to this country were not those countries rich and powerful they were the poor. The reason that they came here was in search of the oppurtunity for succues. The wealth that many have attained is because of the capitalistic system that you seem to dislike so much. I for one like the system because it works. The proof is we are the wealthiest most succesful nation in the history of the world. We are so wealthy in fact that the poor in this country do not have to work they are fed, clothed, housed and even educated at no expense to themselves. If you do not take advantage of the educational system then your chances of poverty are greatly increased. If you choose to take advantage of the educational system strive to success and work hard you then your chances for success are great. If you choose not to take advantage of the educational oppurtunities this country provides and work hard you still have a great chance for success. If you come by some sucess and pay taxes and choose to invest what money is left over in a company that makes you money (ps that corporation is owned by people just like you) and make more money that money is also taxed. When you die and leave what you have worked your entire life to your children then that money is also taxed. I do not trust people that say they care about me that dont know me I dont trust any politican that says he cares about me or you and wants to help me I think he wants my vote to stay in office so that he is able to receive all the perks and graft. I trust the ones that stay out of my way run the country according to the way the founding fathers intended and let me make personal choices. I for one dont think higher and more taxes are answer I think less government is.
Notice all through my reply I use the term choice that is because that is what our successful country is based on. Rodram during my reply not once have I called you any names or been rude to you could you please give me the same consideration. Sincerely Dbbogey

[Rodram]

Absolutely dbbogey your sincerity is recognized and you have my greatest respect. No chance to respond thoughtfully right now but I will soon.

Pixel, thanks brother for the story you've always got some wisdom to share!

TO YOU FATHERS OUT THERE, HAPPY FATHERS DAY!

[Rodram]

Originally Posted by dbbogey

Dear Rodram the wealthy in this country have come by it in several different ways one smart, two work hard. The people that chose to immigrate to this country were not those countries rich and powerful they were the poor. The reason that they came here was in search of the oppurtunity for succues. The wealth that many have attained is because of the capitalistic system that you seem to dislike so much. I for one like the system because it works. The proof is we are the wealthiest most succesful nation in the history of the world. We are so wealthy in fact that the poor in this country do not have to work they are fed, clothed, housed and even educated at no expense to themselves. If you do not take advantage of the educational system then your chances of poverty are greatly increased. If you choose to take advantage of the educational system strive to success and work hard you then your chances for success are great. If you choose not to take advantage of the educational oppurtunities this country provides and work hard you still have a great chance for success. If you come by some sucess and pay taxes and choose to invest what money is left over in a company that makes you money (ps that corporation is owned by people just like you) and make more money that money is also taxed. When you die and leave what you have worked your entire life to your children then that money is also taxed. I do not trust people that say they care about me that dont know me I dont trust any politican that says he cares about me or you and wants to help me I think he wants my vote to stay in office so that he is able to receive all the perks and graft. I trust the ones that stay out of my way run the country according to the way the founding fathers intended and let me make personal choices. I for one dont think higher and more taxes are answer I think less government is.
Notice all through my reply I use the term choice that is because that is what our successful country is based on. Rodram during my reply not once have I called you any names or been rude to you could you please give me the same consideration. Sincerely Dbbogey

dbbogey, this is what I asked: "Where is your evidence? Where is your empirical data? What is the basis of your claims? Where are your evidence proved facts? How did you come to this conclusion? Where are the links to support your statements?"

You gave me this: Nothing except well known generalities.

You said this: "I do not trust people that say they care about me that dont know me I dont trust any politican that says he cares about me or you and wants to help me I think he wants my vote to stay in office so that he is able to receive all the perks and graft."

My answer is this: Who is ultimately responsible for this politician? You are and tell me how you plan to correct it and if not, why are you shirking the responsibilities bestowed upon you by the Founding Fathers? Didn't you say this: "run the country according to the way the founding fathers intended"

You said this:"I for one dont think higher and more taxes are answer I think less government is."

My answer is this: This is Reaganism and conservative ideology so answer these questions:
1. What President and party grew government the most since Eisenhower?

2. What President and party grew government the least and balanced the budget since Eisenhower?

3. What President and party gave us the worst job growth since 1941?


*************WARNING!!******** ******

I have a lot of respect for you and even though we disagree, I believe you are a Patriotic American so I will tell you these are "Gotcha questions"!

[dbbogey]

Rodram, Thanks for reply. I did not state any facts or figures through out my response to you. I stated my opinion only about why I dont think raising taxes is the answer to this nations problems. I think the government spending more money than than they take in is. And part of that problem is helping to make people not responsible for themselves and using the have and have not philosophy to convince people that raising taxes and giving money to those people is what their responsiblity as leaders is. I also understand my responsiblity as a citizen is to vote for leaders the way I feel and hope they will lead this wonderful country in which we live in the direction I believe is right and then pay attention to the way those men and men conduct themselves while in office. I sincerely believe that we are so far from what our founding fathers intended that we are in serious trouble and wish to return to the belief that the constitution is a document to be followed and I think both parties that are power are doing a poor job of that. You asked three gotcha questions to which I think are a little unfair since during those periods congress could be and was controlled by the two different parties both pandering to recieve votes and not doing what is best for the nation. 1. Not sure going to have to go with Reagan but thats not fair because economic growth was outstanding and followed Carter which I will allude to later 2. Probably Clinton another not fair since he ran the budget like a conservative and congress was mostly conservative during his term and was not able to pass health care. 3. Would love to say Carter because he was the worst prez of 20th century and maybe entire history ps. plus his behavior after leaving office is also the worst of any former president, so I am going with our present president spent over a 900 billion dollars on "shovel ready jobs" of which only 10% have been started US News and Daily Report also promised unemployment would not be over 9% currently its 9.7 raised the national debt from to 10 to 14 trillion in just two years and I think he is just getting warmed up and as a matter of fact. Believes that he must increase debt limit. Been nice discussing this with you have a great day Mr. Rodram

[Rodram]

db, I see where you're coming from on your response without facts or numbers and I understand. Now that you are using numbers that changes now correct?

Conservative mantra is no taxes under any circumstance. See Grover Norquist and his pledge that all republicans most sign before going into office.

You said this: "I stated my opinion only about why I dont think raising taxes is the answer to this nations problems."

Can you give me the evidence that raising taxes is not the answer to our nations current debt?

You said this: "And part of that problem is helping to make people not responsible for themselves and using the have and have not philosophy to convince people that raising taxes and giving money to those people is what their responsiblity as leaders is."

Who are these people that are receiving money and what percentage is responsible for the debt?

Ok, I'll leave it there until you answer and then we'll move on.