Unions

[Ansley]

I don't know too much about them. I was in a union when I tended bar in an airport. I had mixed emotions. Sure the hourly pay was great for a bartender but that was it. It ticked me off to no end when I would see people senior to me spending more time not doing their job. Yet they still got to work in the busiest bars.

I was around ALPA (a pilot's union) for a few years. If a pilot was senior enough he could go for weeks without flying, yet get a pretty good paycheck. Needless to say the old boyfriend was really good at golf. lol

With most airlines, flight attendants are unionized. Not so with Delta. They have never unionized. From what I understand, with the merger of Delta and Northwest, the union is knocking on their door pretty hard.

I would love to know what opinion y'all have of unions.

[DFW5Traveler]

When I worked for a defense contractor, I had union reps knocking on my door asking me to see my employees to pitch the wonderful benefits of being a union member. The laws stated I had to let them talk to my employees, which i didn't mind doing and I had a lot of fun with it before I'd call out a work stopage for this union thug. He'd spew laws and fines and such and I'd reluctantly give in <snicker>. Then I'd turn my employees loose. The poor union thugs never lasted more than a few minutes as my employees would tear him a new a'hole.

They were usefull in the beginning, but they have outlived their usefulness. There are plenty of laws on the books that protect employees' rights without an a'hole taking money from you for doing nothing. The laws are readily available to anyone with a library card or an internet connection. In the past 5 years, I've even taken a large company to court for FLSA violations.

[Mokoa]

The unions were a great idea when they were first created. But they have mutated into almost criminal enterprises.

[Krunkman]

Unions are double-edged swords. They were created during a time of great employer power and abuse of workers. Over time many of them have morphed into something that cares nothing for the employee any more. It's more of a pissing contest between company management and union management.

Today, in some fields they still have a reason for existence. Tech is a good example, as many employers continue to screw over employees.. calling network techs "engineers" and making them exempt employees and working them all kinds of crazy hours. And many other professional fields have the same work. Working long hours is ok.. to a point. A lot of companies take advantage of it too much though. I was on a project once and put in 2000hrs in just six months... and did I get paid 100% extra, for working an entire years hours in half the time? Nope. Nor did I get six months comp time... I told them I was taking a week off at the end and just wen home. That's an extreme example, but talk to the people you know and they'll tell you a lot of the same stories.

I've heard of the airline example. That's a problem with unions being bad. Teamsters hide behind stupid rules like that too to the detriment of the company and the employee. I read once (before United's first bankruptcy) a pilot on the Chicago - Paris run had a ton of seniority and could bid any slot he wanted. He ended up working 4 days a month and took home a $168,000 salary. That's just fuked up! But airlines do screw employees, by only paying them for actual time in the air. So the time they spend on the ground, or taxiing, or delayed... they don't get paid. That's kinda messed up too.

It's really only in the in the industries like the railroads (where federal rules are set and both employee and employer have to abide by them) that there seems to be some balance... though some rules are a bit silly, like the 8hr rule where you have to park your train at the end of the shift no matter where you are. That's a big headache and there should be exemptions, though most management teams would probably start looking for ways to cheat to cut costs (and get bigger bonuses at some else's expense).

So I think they are a hell of our own making.. not sure if they should live or die. They do still have some uses, but common sense I think should prevail more than us vs. them mentality.

[oden]

The greatest threat to our society is government unions. There is no doubt that private sector unions had a place and in some instances (limited) were beneficial. However, public/government unions are nothing but pork and and political cronyism and should be illegal.

[TexTushHog]

Employees of good employers don't need them and generally choose not to organize. Employees of employers who are assholes need them desperately and often choose to organize.

And generally, they do great work for their employees. Look at the railroad industry. An average railroad engineer makes around $135,000, plus benefits that are worth around $30,000/Yr. By comparison, a truck driver -- a comparable employee in a non-unionized industry -- is lucky to make $35 - 45,000 and often has few, if any benefits. Plus his working conditions are generally worse, and the industry's safety record is miserable compared to the railroad industry. Looks like an easy choice to me.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

Employees of good employers don't need them and generally choose not to organize. Employees of employers who are assholes need them desperately and often choose to organize.

And generally, they do great work for their employees. Look at the railroad industry. An average railroad engineer makes around $135,000, plus benefits that are worth around $30,000/Yr. By comparison, a truck driver -- a comparable employee in a non-unionized industry -- is lucky to make $35 - 45,000 and often has few, if any benefits. Plus his working conditions are generally worse, and the industry's safety record is miserable compared to the railroad industry. Looks like an easy choice to me.

Gee, I wonder if that is why railroads are dying in this county (even with massive government subsidies). There is no free lunch. The extra money comes out of the consumer.

Unions are a form of monopoly. Monopolies are considered a bad thing in business, why would they be a good thing in labor.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by oden

The greatest threat to our society is government unions. There is no doubt that private sector unions had a place and in some instances (limited) were beneficial. However, public/government unions are nothing but pork and and political cronyism and should be illegal.

+1

[nevergaveitathought]

i had a job unloading boxcars in the hot texas heat of a summer as an lonely poor boy...i lived in a half trailer by myself at 18..fertilizer was the worst...it got up your nose..in your mouth..your hair was covered with it..it was in your pants..the boxcars had been humped...and the sacks of fertilizer settled into tight wedges from floor to ceiling requiring the working of that first top sack with your fingers digging and clawing to loosen the sack..making ever so small incremental movements of the bag..finally getting that first 80 lb sack loose from its tight home up against the dirty slats of the wooden boxcar ceiling. it was maybe 100 degrees outside..in the boxcar i do not know the temperature but it was hot without a breeze, so much so your sweat soddened your clothes into your underwear, mixing old boxcar grime and fertilizer dust into a paste that you tasted in your mouth and almost through your pores.

after a layer of the sacks was removed at the top...since i was the kid..they had me lay up there flat ontop of the rest of the bags with my back touching the ceiling...the air stifling..working the bags as i could down from the top...bearing the heat and dust and sweat only because i didnt want to seem weak to anyone.....useless pride being stupid but powerful ...

the oldtimers who worked there were union..i wasnt...at noon we had sack lunches each had brought from home...the phone would ring....the first time that happened the phone rang and rang.....the straw boss never made a move as the phone rang near him....finally, i went to answer it...maybe twenty guys blocked me and yelled at me to not answer it..the union was on a break...nothing happened on a break by no one. cant say i blame them.

[Katy Alexander]

The Grapes of Wrath....both the book, and movie did a great job of showing why unions were so important at one time in this country.Unfortunately like many things that have started off as a good idea, unions have had their time and place, and that time is pretty much over.

[Texas Contrarian]

[Marcus Aurelius]

I'm a member of ALPA. No airline pilot works 4 days a month and makes $168k a year.
What senior guys do is work two long international trips back to back (with a day or 2 off in between) and have 10 to 14 days off in a row. All pilots have to work a minimum amount of hours per month. All airline pilots have to go to recurrent training each year and prove their skills and competence. It's not like teachers who don't have to do their job well and are protected.

ALPA as a union is responsible for saving untold thousands of lives over the years. ALPA is responsible for giving you the safest mode of transport in the world. Do I think all unions are great? Hell no. But I'm damn glad ALPA exists and you should too.

Airline pilots work long and hard and receive just a fraction of what they used to several years ago. I believe it's the best job in the world but it's not easy and not just anyone can do it.

The situation with Delta and Northwest FA's is interesting. The NWA FA's are union and Delta's are not. Northwest has many senior FA's that frankly should be forced to retire. IMHO they are meaner than a junk yard dog and make poor front line employees.

[charlestudor2005]

I grew up in a union town and have very mixed emotions about it.

Justification for unions came from employers who abused employees. Families like the Rockefellers would pay their employees in scrip usable only at the stores the Rockefellers ran, and so the employees were no more than slaves to the Rockefellers.

Unions did away with this practice.

Employers would also work employees under extremely dangerous conditions. (Even including today...just look at the recent mine accidents.) Unions made work places safer for employees.

Every industry has horror stories that unions helped to cure. Railroad. Teachers. Garment trade. Auto. Airline. The list goes on...

My parents were teachers and belonged to that union. I lived in a GM town and was very familiar with the AFL-CIO.

But when unions become strong, like everyone/everything else, they throw their weight around, and it isn't necessarily for the good.

Do unions still continue to do good? Yes. Do they also abuse? Yes. But on the whole, I think it is better (i.e. better for employees) to have them than not. Otherwise, employers' power would still be absolute and they would abuse employees without any checks or balances.

[Texas Contrarian]

Here's a story about what can happen when public employee unions are allowed to run amok:

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/arti...ops_98581.html

There was a time when unions protected workers from extreme exploitation and danger in the workplace. People had little information regarding fair pay for a day's work, and employers suffered few consequences when people were maimed or killed on the job. Few would argue that unions didn't markedly improve the lives of many millions of Americans in the early part of the 20th century.

Now in all too many cases, union leaders are nothing more than political hacks primarily interested in serving themselves. Although that has, of course, to some extent long been the case, in today's world it is much harder to justify their actions when in so many ways they make companies and whole industries less competitive.

I look at the ALPA as much more than just a union. As M.A. points out, it is a professional organization dedicated to passenger safety. The safety record of U.S. airlines speaks for itself. I have not known many airline pilots, but the ones I've met strike me as highly professional, competent individuals. When I'm riding in that big aluminum tube, I want a real pro in charge -- not some amateur pilot like me!

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

Northwest has many senior FA's that frankly should be forced to retire. IMHO they are meaner than a junk yard dog and make poor front line employees.

LOL!

Know what you mean.

I often fly American (it dominates DFW) and some of the senior FAs act like they're pissed off about having to work that day. Their union always seems to be involved in acrimonious negotiations with the company, and many of them seem not to be very good about checking their bad attitudes at the door before passengers board the aircraft.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight

I often fly American (it dominates DFW) and some of the senior FAs act like they're pissed off about having to work that day. Their union always seems to be involved in acrimonious negotiations with the company, and many of them seem not to be very good about checking their bad attitudes at the door before passengers board the aircraft.

Flight Attendant was a job designed for young (hot) women that was never supposed to be a career. Then the "discrimination" folks came along. Its not like experience past a point gains anything in performance.