Facts About Taxation Policies..

[Whirlaway]

Some of America's wealthy liberals claim they don't pay enough in taxes, but somehow they never send in (to the IRS) more than they are legally required......

Indeed, if Zuckerberg really wants to pay more taxes he can simply send a check to the Treasury Department instead of asking for a tax increase on other people’s incomes.

Here is an interesting read from Reason magazine on Taxation Myths....

http://reason.com/archives/2011/05/2...taxes-and-spen

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

Some of America's wealthy liberals claim they don't pay enough in taxes, but somehow they never send in (to the IRS) more than they are legally required......

Indeed, if Zuckerberg really wants to pay more taxes he can simply send a check to the Treasury Department instead of asking for a tax increase on other people’s incomes.

Here is an interesting read from Reason magazine on Taxation Myths....

http://reason.com/archives/2011/05/2...taxes-and-spen

Seriously if you do not understand how easily that the myth busters are misstating the facts then you do not have a handle on how the system works and who gains it.

Take for instance the first myth buster or fact as they say. They misstate wtf gates and Buffet propose. They understand one needs to raise the capital gains tax. In fact if you were to read the recommendations of the Bowels-Simpson commission report you would find many reasoned arguments on wtf it is we need to do.

Reading the crap in the link is only intended to sway folks with a very limited knowledge of the tax code.

I am not trying to say you are dumb or anything but you are in over your head in comprehending the tax code and how it works. Most of you folks still think lowering taxes will increase the tax take because of increased GDP. That only works up to a point. If it really worked as you think then the effective tax rate should be 1%. Nobody in their right mind thinks a 1% tax rate would cover even the most basic bills that our citizens request. So why in the world do you GOP'ers solution is always "Lower the tax rate!". We have tried that under G W Bush and all we got were huge deficits.

[Little Stevie]

Allow me to restate it where these guys are better able to follow it.

1. The tax cuts are revenue "decreasers" and the last 10 years PROVES they add no significant job numbers. Big business has more cash on hand than ever and yet they are not adding jobs.

2. Most advocate more taxes as the incomes progress (they want to start at $250K INDIVIDUALLY or $500K JOINTLY)

3. Whether the income is from capital gains or selling legal pharmaceuticals is of no import - if it were capital gains, it would still be taxed as capital gains according to proponents of the elimination of the Bush tax cuts.

4. Why should S.S. taxes have an income ceiling? Eliminating the ceiling is not even a progressive tax!

5. Paying down the debt by choking the economy even further will result in rapid deflation which means rapid collapse. It will bring on a depression at least as bad as the 29 crash did with unemployment that will make the current 9% look robust!

Like I said in another post, you can either deflate your way out of a recession or inflate your way out. You do not want to deflate yourself into a world-wide depression PERIOD!

[farmstud60]

I give all of the posts D at best for understanding the issues.

The number one problem in Washington DC is a spending problem. doesn't matter what tax revenues are, spending is always too much.

The second largest problem is the Income Tax code is too complicated, so simple statements like raising or lowering tax rates and the actual tax revenue those rates will generate are not simple to figure out.

What really needs to happen is scrape the entire current Income Tax code and have a flat tax, with realistic depreciation schedules for business equipment purchases. What have now is still part of the failed Keneysian <sp> economic policies of manipulating spending by the government.

[Whirlaway]

Agree.

Originally Posted by farmstud60

I give all of the posts D at best for understanding the issues.

The number one problem in Washington DC is a spending problem. doesn't matter what tax revenues are, spending is always too much.

The second largest problem is the Income Tax code is too complicated, so simple statements like raising or lowering tax rates and the actual tax revenue those rates will generate are not simple to figure out.

What really needs to happen is scrape the entire current Income Tax code and have a flat tax, with realistic depreciation schedules for business equipment purchases. What have now is still part of the failed Keneysian <sp> economic policies of manipulating spending by the government.

[JONBALLS]

Originally Posted by farmstud60

I give all of the posts D at best for understanding the issues.

The number one problem in Washington DC is a spending problem. doesn't matter what tax revenues are, spending is always too much.

The second largest problem is the Income Tax code is too complicated, so simple statements like raising or lowering tax rates and the actual tax revenue those rates will generate are not simple to figure out.

What really needs to happen is scrape the entire current Income Tax code and have a flat tax, with realistic depreciation schedules for business equipment purchases. What have now is still part of the failed Keneysian <sp> economic policies of manipulating spending by the government.

I agree also and there is PLENTY of money thats distributed around, I cant help it if it gets plundererd 1000 times from the net earner to the net user and neigther can alot of people here.The observation that strikes me the most is when people denegrade the ones that recieve large inheritances.Ill never be rich, but dont find myself full of SPITE for those that are, and it really isnt for me to make a judgement as to how they made it and if they were crooks , lucky...etc..Money can be more of a crutch than anything and especially if you have no self restraint or sense of morality.Theres evidence that time after time, if you come into "found money" you waste it for the most part and that doesnt matter if its a $5. find on the sidewalk, a welfare handout, a large inheritance. Bottom line if you didnt really earn it, it wont have the same value to you , youll have a less appreciation for it and will tend to waste.That is human nature and whenever you work in the private sector, the only way your spending will stop and your actions will change is when you spend too much and have no more.In the public sector its difrent, cause , for the most part, thers never any expectation that the flow will end, so people will never need to adjust their spending behaviors.Now it becomes a matter of personal responsibility or having the values that I shouldnt always take take take, and maybe figure a way to contribute.People that are "born" into an inheritance recieve money that has already been taxed MULTIPLE TIMES OVER. The people that orginally earned that cash usually have supported many many people already through acquiring that principle. How much of an angry GOULE do you have to be to even care about how, what , why, where this person got his/her money. And then to make it all worse, use the "POOR" as a scapegoat to justify it.Its no ones GD business at that point.Spite is a horrible emotion and consumes too manys thoughts. Free your mind from that crap and start using the wasted time you spend trying to tear down the rich.Thats how alot of rich got RICH.They had an idea, a skill, some luck,ambition and their mind was open with creativity instead of wasting all their time and brainpower trying to learn and figure out how to game the system and create new rules to attack a person that they "feel" doesnt desrve their station in life.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by farmstud60

. What have now is still part of the failed Keneysian <sp> economic policies of manipulating spending by the government.

Keynes never advocated cutting taxes in time of war! WTF, you just repeat Sean Hannity.


Do you really think the government has followed Keynes economic policies the last thirty years?
We have followed what George H W Bush called Voodoo economics. Supply side bullshit is another term.

Read what David Stockman says about it, he was Reagan's Budget Director. If you come on here acting like you know wtf you are talking about do better than parroting idiots on the radio. It does neither you or the parrot justice.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by JONBALLS

I agree also and there is PLENTY of money thats distributed around, I cant help it if it gets plundererd 1000 times from the net earner to the net user and neigther can alot of people here.The observation that strikes me the most is when people denegrade the ones that recieve large inheritances.Ill never be rich, but dont find myself full of SPITE for those that are, and it really isnt for me to make a judgement as to how they made it and if they were crooks , lucky...etc..Money can be more of a crutch than anything and especially if you have no self restraint or sense of morality.Theres evidence that time after time, if you come into "found money" you waste it for the most part and that doesnt matter if its a $5. find on the sidewalk, a welfare handout, a large inheritance. Bottom line if you didnt really earn it, it wont have the same value to you , youll have a less appreciation for it and will tend to waste.That is human nature and whenever you work in the private sector, the only way your spending will stop and your actions will change is when you spend too much and have no more.In the public sector its difrent, cause , for the most part, thers never any expectation that the flow will end, so people will never need to adjust their spending behaviors.Now it becomes a matter of personal responsibility or having the values that I shouldnt always take take take, and maybe figure a way to contribute.People that are "born" into an inheritance recieve money that has already been taxed MULTIPLE TIMES OVER. The people that orginally earned that cash usually have supported many many people already through acquiring that principle. How much of an angry GOULE do you have to be to even care about how, what , why, where this person got his/her money. And then to make it all worse, use the "POOR" as a scapegoat to justify it.Its no ones GD business at that point.Spite is a horrible emotion and consumes too manys thoughts. Free your mind from that crap and start using the wasted time you spend trying to tear down the rich.Thats how alot of rich got RICH.They had an idea, a skill, some luck,ambition and their mind was open with creativity instead of wasting all their time and brainpower trying to learn and figure out how to game the system and create new rules to attack a person that they "feel" doesnt desrve their station in life.

JB read this book and get back with us when you have some idea wtf is going on in the economy.

http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Politi.../dp/0380703114

Whirlaway and farmstud I will buy you a copy too.

You two do not have a clue as to wtf you are talking about.

[farmstud60]

Originally Posted by WTF

Do you really think the government has followed Keynes economic policies the last thirty years?
We have followed what George H W Bush called Voodoo economics. Supply side bullshit is another term.

Actually out side of Reagan's term in office, they have worked to move things to Keynes policies.

The tax code is so complicated that it is sort of a hybrid Keynes policy.

Like I said, get rid of the Income Tax code completely and get a flat tax, better than anything else that could done.

[JONBALLS]

Originally Posted by WTF

JB read this book and get back with us when you have some idea wtf is going on in the economy.

http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Politi.../dp/0380703114

Whirlaway and farmstud I will buy you a copy too.

You two do not have a clue as to wtf you are talking about.

Give me the "Cliff Notes" edition and , well , maybe..LOL!! Sorry, not much of a book reader.

[Texas Contrarian]

@WTF and Little Stevie:

Did you guys actually read the piece linked in the opening post?

You immediately launched into a list of non sequiturs. The author did not makes claims such that lowering tax rates always raises revenues, etc. Instead, she points out that attempts to tax the wealthy do not work out the way most people think.

Another point is that European social democracies such as France finance their welfare states with tax rates on the non-affluent far higher than ours. Just take a look at the graph showing the share of income paid by each decile of French taxpayers.

Anyone who thinks we can raise enough revenue to significantly reduce our gargantuan budget deficits by increasing taxes only on the wealthy is living in a fantasy world.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight

@WTF and Little Stevie:

Did you guys actually read the piece linked in the opening post?

You immediately launched into a list of non sequiturs. The author did not makes claims such that lowering tax rates always raises revenues, etc. Instead, she points out that attempts to tax the wealthy do not work out the way most people think.

.

FROM THE ARTICLE.........

Myth 1: Millionaires who favor of an income tax increase are fiscal heroes.
Fact 1: No, they’re not. Many of the rich get the majority of their income in the form of capital gains and dividends rather than ordinary income. They are essentially advocating a tax increase on those making much less money than they do.

Originally Posted by WTF

Seriously if you do not understand how easily that the myth busters are misstating the facts then you do not have a handle on how the system works and who gains it.

Take for instance the first myth buster or fact as they say. They misstate wtf gates and Buffet propose. They understand one needs to raise the capital gains tax. In fact if you were to read the recommendations of the Bowels-Simpson commission report you would find many reasoned arguments on wtf it is we need to do.

Reading the crap in the link is only intended to sway folks with a very limited knowledge of the tax code.

I am not trying to say you are dumb or anything but you are in over your head in comprehending the tax code and how it works. Most of you folks still think lowering taxes will increase the tax take because of increased GDP. That only works up to a point. If it really worked as you think then the effective tax rate should be 1%. Nobody in their right mind thinks a 1% tax rate would cover even the most basic bills that our citizens request. So why in the world do you GOP'ers solution is always "Lower the tax rate!". We have tried that under G W Bush and all we got were huge deficits.

Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight

@
Anyone who thinks we can raise enough revenue to significantly reduce our gargantuan budget deficits by increasing taxes only on the wealthy is living in a fantasy world.

I never said that, I said I agreed for the most part with Bowels/Simpson. Did you read the article?
Did you read my response to the bullshit myth number one?

They basically lie about what Gates and Buffet have stated.

Kinda like what you are doing now! LOL

[Little Stevie]

I( read every word AND watched the video.

It is not my fault the author advocates a less than workable solution. The basic reason we are where we are is NOT so-called entitlements. It is because of deregulation of the casino-like, no-holds-barred Wall Street and Banking actions coupled with two GIANT wars that were "charged" or (fought on credit for those of you who don't understand the need for tax revenue) while government income (tax revenue) were lowered to all-time lows mainly on the wealthiest. Add to that the FAKE corporate tax rate of 35% being lower than it was even under Reagan AND the fact that NO large corporation really EVER pays that rate (avg. 7.8%) and that billions sit in off shore or foreign accounts.

Now couple all this with PAID-FOR spin through Koch, Exxon-Mobile, et all funneled to the Heritage Foundation, Americans for Prosperity and a gazillion other fake front groups. Then let them stir up the liberal/conservative hate-fest as they take attention away from their real battle. That battle is for a handful of corporate giants to increase corporate control of the economy and elections. (Do you REALLY think "citizens" funded CITIZENS UNITED? Ha Ha Ha)

CaptainMidnight, you are missing the huge "for-profit" charge account opened to fight the two wars by the politicians owned by the military industrial complex Bush, Cheney, Dodd, Murtha, Cunningham, Inhofe, Clinton and tons of others). The fact that Wall Street also made money on the war machine was just one more example of how the deficit reached its present level while Bush cut taxes in a failed attempt to stimulate the economy by doing so.

After the real estate bubble burst due to to the large developers, builders, realtors and lenders falsifying qualified buyers so they could get around the CRA (while AIG and other giant insurers and lenders "invented" new "magic" mortgage default insurance in the form of derivatives called Credit Default Swaps - say thanks to Phil Gramm and go Google Brooksley Born and her attempt to get Greenspan to intervene).

The Wall Street and Bank bailouts were occasioned by the failure of these fake insurance instruments and the knowledge that they "insured" almost the entire home loan market as well as the auto-finance market. Bush then began planning the bailout and brought Obama "up to speed" on the sheer magnitude of the potential global collapse AFTER the market began to go down but the bigger pow-wows were held months later when he invited McCain and Obama to Washing after the precipitous September market drop.

By that time, there were two alternatives (1) allow the defaults and collapse the markets all over the world and plunge the global economy into a worldwide depression at least as dire as the one after the 1929 stock market crash OR (2) bail everybody out and suffer the consequences of devalued currency (inflation).

Say what you want but those were the only two choices after the situation got to that point in 2007-2008.

I think they made the better of two very poor choices but they were the only choices.

To cut spending now with a revenue increase that is larger spells depression. I am not very confident that some of the cash flush larger corporations and their paid-for politicians (mostly GOP but not all) are completely ready to weather that storm while anyone making less than $200K a year will not have the "staying power" to go through the coming crash that will happen if they choose that tactic.

The corporations will win in several ways. They will be able to exploit labor in a depressed economy. They will have plenty of cash. They will exploit overseas markets that show less volatile fluctuations. They will see funding for regulation plummet. They will roll back other regulations by paying off politicians and regulators because they will have control of most of the cash.

All this will happen while we fight amongst ourselves while they pay front groups to throw more gasoline on those fires!

Go try to disprove any of the above. Why do you think Americans for Prosperity gets over half its funding from a single source - the Koch Brothers (through a half-dozen of their non-profit foundations)? Also realize that the Koch's father was co-founder of the John Birch Society that believed I*ke was a freaking COMMUNIST! If there is anything to the RIGHT of Fascism,it is the John Birch Society philosophy. And the Kochs' father came from Nazi Germany.

Wake up, people but wake up FARTHER than how much the Tea Party wants you to wake up. This is all right there for you to research.

[Texas Contrarian]

Originally Posted by WTF

Did you read my response to the bullshit myth number one?

Looked a little like an incoherent non sequitur to me. Was there a point?

Originally Posted by Little Stevie

It is not my fault the author advocates a less than workable solution.

The author's intention was merely to point out a few misunderstandings, not to advocate some sort of comprehensive solution to our problems.

Originally Posted by Little Stevie

CaptainMidnight, you are missing the huge "for-profit" charge account opened to fight the two wars by the politicians owned by the military industrial complex Bush, Cheney, Dodd, Murtha, Cunningham, Inhofe, Clinton and tons of others). The fact that Wall Street also made money on the war machine was just one more example of how the deficit reached its present level while Bush cut taxes in a failed attempt to stimulate the economy by doing so.

I am not "missing" anything.

My earlier post only addressed a couple of points; it was not my intention at the time to cover every remotely tangential topic. There are indeed a lot of dragons to slay.

However, I did address that topic recently, albeit in another thread:

http://www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=...9&postcount=63

Originally Posted by Little Stevie

The basic reason we are where we are is NOT so-called entitlements.

There obviously are myriad reasons that we're in such serious trouble, but the unbridled growth of entitlements is certainly a major one.

[jhende3]

The rich get richer and the poor don't get a fucking thing! We give exxon and other companies big tax break so they could make more and more money.

Heres a novel fact:

Exxon is the most profitable company in the histor or the world! Not this year or this century. Or in the united states but the world. And there are people fighting to keep their tax breaks. By all accounts poor people. I don't blame the politicians fir fighting for it their getting rich by keeping them. I blame the poor joker who has to fill his truck up once a week who swears it a good idea to have them.

And the "drill baby drill idiots" preaching that that will bring down oil prices are just as weak minded. Like Exxon has some big plan on the shelves to lower company profits by flooding the market with oil. That defies logic.

If Exxon and these other companies deserve a tax break so do I. I'm putting young women to work weekly. In essence I'm a small business owner. The more taxs i pay the less i can keep these girls working. I might have to lay some of them off!