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CuteOldGuy · 06-21-2012, 11:52 PM

You all know that the Fast and Furious program really pisses me off. I can guaran-damn-tee you that I would be just as outraged if John Ashcroft, Alberto Gonzalez, Edwin Meese, or any other AG you can name under any President had implemented this program and been as incompetent as Eric Holder in the administration thereof.

So I ask you, and be honest now, let's just pretend this was the Bush administration (since you all like to compare Obama to Bush) and John Ashcroft is AG, and the program progressed just like it did under Holder. Who would be defending the program, and who would be as upset as me?

I'm guessing that the libs would be all over Ashcroft and demanding his impeachment, and at least some of you Republicans would be defending Ashcroft.

So, what would your opinion be? My position is that right is right, and wrong is wrong, regardless of who is in charge. And this program was wrong, all wrong, from the beginning.

For extra credit, use the same criteria, and evaluate if your opinion of the NDAA would change.

What say you?

budman33 · 06-22-2012, 12:05 AM

Well it did start under Bush. An Agent was killed under Obama's administration. Good intentions, bad result but both sides of the aisle had hands in this.

in drug stings how many people die from overdose while we set shit up? I am sure that is a non zero number. Would they ahve found other drugs and met the same demise? the probability is high.

Would This agent have also died had there been no fast and furious? Probability just as high.

what no one mentions is the 1800 or so charges and hundreds of convictions that happened before this Agent got shot. That may or may not have been a fast and Furious Gun. The bullets were never matched due to damage, but to me its irrelevant.

but please dispell the "pretend" part. this program just changed names and execution, not purpose, from Bush to Obama.

CuteOldGuy · 06-22-2012, 12:26 AM

You didn't answer the question, Bud.

To keep you from getting confused, let's say the AG is Meese, and Reagan is President.

CJ7 · 06-22-2012, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

You didn't answer the question, Bud.

To keep you from getting confused, let's say the AG is Meese, and Reagan is President.

bud gave you an honest answer, well thought out too ... had you enough savvy to understand it, it basically blames no one

Ive already said you cant honestly BLAME anyone. An agent was killed in the line of duty fighting a war on illegal immigration ... my condolences are out.

an EO is in place to protect more people from getting killed by mexican mobs ... specifically, the undercover sting agents involved up to their very brave asses.

If obie didnt use an EO and more people died as a result you boys would shit red bricks, if he does you shit red bricks ... deal with it

CuteOldGuy · 06-22-2012, 01:06 AM

I must have made the question too hard.

CJ7 · 06-22-2012, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

I must have made the question too hard.

1 round about nobodys fault

1 solid nobodys fault

REGARDLESS WHO IN THE HELL THE PRESIDENT OR AG IS OR WAS.

got it?

CuteOldGuy · 06-22-2012, 01:11 AM

Ok, if that's your honest opinion, fine. Thanks for answering. Anyone else?

CJ7 · 06-22-2012, 01:14 AM

welcome.

Seedy · 06-22-2012, 02:06 AM

Doesn't matter who's in there"hang em high".. god damn politicians, there isn't a fucking one worth a bullet. But the bunch of totally corrupt cocksuckers in there now is just totally mindboggling. Yea I said cocksuckers, and that includes obaminable, head cocksucker in charge of destroying our country...

JD Barleycorn · 06-22-2012, 02:27 AM

Its not you, its them. They really don't want to give an honest answer.

I know what I expect.
I expect my president to nominate an Attorney General who is not an incompetent boob.
I expect an Attorney General to get on top this operation.
I expect the president to be angry that an American died because of his Attorney General and not angry that people are saying things about him.
I expect the president to give his AG one chance to clear himself or his is out the door publicly.
If we take this up to where we already are then I expect angry president to order everyone in his administration to cooperate or submit their resignation.
I expect a president to tell the public that there will be no pardon for malfeasonce.

FYI, the operation called Gun Runner was ENDED under Bush because the logistics proved to be too insurmountable. Fast and Furious was started under Obama and screwed up under Obama. This is his mess.

BigLouie · 06-22-2012, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

You all know that the Fast and Furious program really pisses me off. I can guaran-damn-tee you that I would be just as outraged if John Ashcroft, Alberto Gonzalez, Edwin Meese, or any other AG you can name under any President had implemented this program and been as incompetent as Eric Holder in the administration thereof.

First this programs was NOT implemented by Eric Holder, if you are being serious do some research.

If you are being serious I will be serious. It is my belief and this is backed up with documentation that is available everywhere, that this program was started by Bush and his Justice Department. Eric Holder took over when he because AG. I serious doubt if he was aware of the entire scope until the "shit hit the fan" as they say. I think this was a case of field people and career people starting this and now Obama and Holder get the blame when things go back.

CuteOldGuy if you are serious do some research on the history of the program, when it started and who ran it.

BigLouie · 06-22-2012, 06:17 AM

Here are some interesting links everyone should read.

The long history of ATF Gun Walking

From Wikipedia

Doove · 06-22-2012, 06:23 AM

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Since when did "where he got the gun" become relevant to anything?

Oh, that's right. Nevermind.

Chica Chaser · 06-22-2012, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigLouie

First this programs was NOT implemented by Eric Holder, if you are being serious do some research.

If you are being serious I will be serious. It is my belief and this is backed up with documentation that is available everywhere, that this program was started by Bush and his Justice Department. Eric Holder took over when he because AG. I serious doubt if he was aware of the entire scope until the "shit hit the fan" as they say. I think this was a case of field people and career people starting this and now Obama and Holder get the blame when things go back.

CuteOldGuy if you are serious do some research on the history of the program, when it started and who ran it.

Sorry Louie, but your facts are simply incorrect. Operation Wide Receiver, ran from 2006 to 2007. Operation Fast and Furious was operational from 2009 to 2011. They were most certainly two different operations under two different administrations and AG's.

If you take it back further, there was Project Gunrunner that began in Laredo in 2005 and was expanded in 2006. Project Gunrunner was an umbrella campaign to combat firearms smuggling along the Southwestern border. ATF agents conducted surveillance to find legal grounds to arrest the straw buyers. Over time, they seized more than 10,000 weapons and indicted scores of low-level criminals.
Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...#ixzz1yWPGkfxY These are all different operations.

I think where some get hung up here is the fact that both Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious were run out of the same Phoenix area ATF office. Both tried to make use of the same chain of gun buyers, smugglers, and middle men who moved weapons up the ladder to the cartels.

Whirlaway · 06-22-2012, 06:59 AM

Fast and Furious was started (and botched) by Holder.

The purpose of FF was to attack the 2nd ammendment.