Army "Birther" Facing Court Martial

[MsElena]

What's your opinion on this? Please keep it civil.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...77-503544.html

My opinion is that he signed up for duty and he should keep his word. I know that when I worked in the hotel business, if I didn't like my boss and didn't show up for work because of that, I would've got fired.

[GneissGuy]

Leavenworth.

[john_galt]

Elena, it is not about like or dislike. It is about lawful orders. Military personnel are not supposed to obey lawful orders. Who decides at the time whether or not an order is lawful? Many times it is up to the person receiving the order even if they are only 18 years old. A person can be punished for refusing to obey an order but they can only hope that their superiors will decide that they were correct in the heat of the moment. What makes an order unlawful? It can be an order that is against military (UCMJ) law or against the good order of the military. It can also be an order issued by a person who can't issue such an order. The wife of a general cannot order a sargeant to get some people together to paint her house. You would be surprised how many wives think they share their husbands rank. It could be someone not in your chain of command. Some passing officer grabs up a bunch of troops who already have their orders. It is the responsibilty of the subordinate to inform the superior that they are already acting under orders. A lowly private does not obey the orders of a Congressman or Senator because they are not constitutionally allowed to give orders and that is the rub. All other presidential candidates have proven that they are constitutionally eligible to be president except for one person; Barack Obama. It is the responsibility of the party to ensure that this occurs and they have admitted that they have not taken reasonable measures to ensure this. Recall the short controversy two years ago when it was discovered John McCain was born in a Panama hospital on a U.S. military base? The Senate got together to announce that they would pass a law to guarantee McCain's eligibility but it became unnessary when they were reminded that the Panama Canal Zone was U.S. property by treaty. Yes, that means that Jimmy Carter gave away U.S. land with his little garage sale but I digress...
That brings us to the issue; Is Barack Obama able to give lawful orders as CIC? That means he has to be the constitutionally elected POTUS. That means he has to be qualified to be the POTUS. That further means that he has to be a natural U.S. citizen. That is the problem. The democrats in the Hillary Clinton campaign first brought up the birth certificate (check it out) problem. In 1961 the state of Hawaii had two birth certificates; the long form and the short form. The long form lists the parents, the name of the child, the name of the delivering doctor, the date, and any other attendees. The short form only lists the name of the parents, the date the child was presented, and the child's name. This would be the case if a child was born at home or not in a hospital. The short form only acknowleges that the child was seen and truly exists. It does not prove place of birth or date of birth. It is up to the parents to fill that in. Barack has only presented a copy of the short form to date.
The other problem is that Barack's parents were not legally married since BO senior still had a wife in Africa when he married Baracks mother. In 1961 a child born assumed the nationality of his guardian parent if they had reached the age of maturity and had lived in the U.S. for at least five years. If BO could only claim his mother (since there was no legal marriage) she was too young to apply her citizenship to him. She was only 19 and had only reached the age of maturity for one years and not five. If BO claims his acknowleged father BO senior then he becomes a British colonial citizen.
There is the problem; the officer in question does not want to be put in the position of obeying an unlawful order issued by someone who can not legally issue orders which could make him a war criminal at an international tribunal.
The sad truth is that BO could end this whole thing by just showing us a copy of his birth certificate. BO is sowing disorder by withholding this information.
For some of you (PAY ATTENTION!) at no time have I rendered a judgement on the legality of the case only the particulars.

[john_galt]

The term "birther" is a derogatory term and an veiled insult. Would you call a police officer a name because he wanted to see some ID, or a clerk who wants to see your drivers license? You probably don't know but please use something else.

[lacrew_2000]

First, I do think it is proper for a presidential candidate to present a birth certificate/proof of natural born status. The state of California actually has had two instances where they pulled people off the ballot. In one case, it was known that the person was too young. In a second case, it was known that the person was born in South America.

The United States Senate actually compelled John McCain to produce a birth certificate. He was born on an American base in Panama; and, quite frankly, if he had won, he status as 'natural born' would have been in doubt.

So, given the fact that President Obama's grandmother (and some other government officials) said he was born in Kenya, it seems completely reasonable to me to require him to produce his birth certificate. I sincerely hope that at least one state makes it a requirement to get on the ballot before the next presidential election.

I know he has shown a cert of live birth on a web-site...but he has not produced an actual birth certificate - as evidenced by the ongoing lawsuits trying to get him to produce one...so I don't want anybody telling me about Factcheck.org, etc....there are ongoing court cases in which Obama's birth cert is being pursued, and he is fighting it.

Do I think he was born in Kenya? Nope. I think he was born in Hawaii...but there is embarassing information on the actual birth certificate. There is also the possibility that we was adopted by Soetoro...and because of the lack of dual citizenship with Indonesia, his citizenship status in this country could be in doubt. I know - conspiracy theory...but all we have is theories until he produces his birth certificate.

And he violates the 4th Principle of Leadership (Keep your subordinates informed) by putting officers in a guessing position on his natural born status.

As for the officer. I admire him for his conviction...but, he is forgetting his oath to defend the constitution (which implies obeying lawful orders). I had lots of officers above me who I considered monumentally unqualified...but it didn't stop me from obeying their lawful orders. If he wants to sue to see the birth cert, fine...but you can't refuse orders on a suspicion that the CIC is unqualified. The determination of the qulifications of the CIC is a completely civilian action (ultimately performed bythe congress when the ratify the election results). So, he should deploy when and where he is told to.

So, I think the officer is in legal hot water. He is the first active duty oficer to do this, so this will be informative. Some reserve officers have done the same, and quietly been de-activated. If the administration/military does not court marshall this officer, I'll have even more conspiracy theories floating around in my head.

[Cheaper2buyit]

put his ass in jail forget who the pres is he has a job to do get a gun or fix our guys but get the job done thats why we don't draft you join on your own. An you do whats told

[lacrew_2000]

It has everything to do with Obama? The guy is refusing to deploy on the grounds Obama won't produce a birth cert.

If it turns out he wasn't born in this country...he will stop being president. It would mean that he falsified forms to get on the ballot in some states...that crime alone would be enough for his party to abandon him and get him impeached. Now remember, I think he was born in this country...just pointing out that there are 'take backs' if it turns out I'm wrong.

Here are the constitutional requirements to be president:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States

I think it is perfectly reasonable if a state wants to verify these requirements are met before putting a candidate on the ballot (remembr California has taken people off the ballot for not meeting the requirements).

[kcbigpapa]

I agree with GG. He should go to Leavenworth. Revoke his medical license and revoke any pension benefits. I also felt that way about those that didn't want to go to Iraq or Afghanistan under Bush because they are conscientious objectors or whatever various reasons. How can you conscientiously object when you join the military. The only time I would consider accepting that is during times of draft.

[MsElena]

Originally Posted by john_galt

The term "birther" is a derogatory term and an veiled insult. Would you call a police officer a name because he wanted to see some ID, or a clerk who wants to see your drivers license? You probably don't know but please use something else.

I was just using the title that every other website/newspaper has been using for the title of the article.

I've done some searching online, here's the "birthers" website and to quote them, "We accept their name, the Birthers for wanting to give rebirth tothat whichwe as Americans hold dear." http://www.birthers.org/

Now, here's another one I found on urbandictionary: "A conspiracy theorist who believes that Barack Obama is ineligible for the Presidency of the United States, based on any number of claims related to his place of birth, birth certificate, favorite birthday, or whether or not he has heard the song Africa by Toto."

They also have 13 other definitions.

I'll take that apology now.

[GneissGuy]

Do deployment orders actually come from the president, or from some officer in the Army? Even if you admit Obama is not legally the president, does that absolve you from the requirement to obey orders from your chain of command?

If you think the colonel two levels up in your chain of command is somehow not legally qualified to command, can you ignore orders from your immediate superior? "Alright men, attack the enemy." "Sergeant, I think the colonel cheated on some of his West Point exams, so I can't obey that order."

Hey, maybe I should stop paying my federal and local taxes because I can't see Obama's birth certificate. I wonder how that would work out?

[Adrielle]

Originally Posted by john_galt

Would you call a police officer a name because he wanted to see some ID, or a clerk who wants to see your drivers license? You probably don't know but please use something else.

Let's say for fun, I go to to a bar a few times a week to hang out with friends. I get carded at the door every time I want in, even though the doorman knows who I am. Irritating, but I can live with that. But then eventually, one day, the same doorman I always see denys me entry because he's decided that my ID is fake. I wouldn't resort to name calling, but hell yes, I'd be mad.

[Cheaper2buyit]

Adrielle you have a nice ass really nice me like it alot.

[john_galt]

Not yet Elena, the definition says a "conspiracy" theorist. Where it the conspiracy? I know some people who doubt his citizenship but they don't point to any conspiracy. Only Obama knows the answer and maybe Michelle (she said a couple of years ago that her and her husband visited his homeland when they went to Kenya). Don't ask, don't tell. The democrats didn't ask and he didn't tell (if he is a non-citizen). No conspiracy=none operative definition

[john_galt]

Adrielle, not talking about a long term relationship. In this context that would be Michelle's problem.

[john_galt]

To answer Gneiss Gnow, the general officer who issued the orders is sanctioned but if his orders were unlawful then he too can be charged with war crimes. He would probably not be convicted but you know how lawyers are.

During World War II there was a reserve Lt. Colonel named Wendall Fertig in the Philippines. His commanding officer announced that he had been ordered to surrender but he could not find Fertig then he could not pass on a lawful order. Fertig and about a dozen Americans and Filipino scouts took to the jungle. First they had to survive and then Fertig became convinced that they could conduct guerrilla operations against the Japanese. He knew that a reserve light colonel was not going to get the respect that was needed. He promoted himself to brigidier general and promoted the enlisted men with him to staff officer positions. When the Americans arrived in 1944 they were met by general Fertig and 100,000 guerrilla fighters. McArthur threatened to courts martial all of them for impersonating officers. Mac also wanted to charge the enlisted men with carrying out unlawful orders issued by someone that they knew was not authorized to issue general orders. Mac's nose was so out of joint (he reported that it was impossible to conduct guerrilla operations in PI) that he prevented Fertig from recieving any promotions. Fertig retired to Colorado after the war.