Since when is being politically correct crossing the line, and is it pick and choose?

[hotlips_houlihan]

Most of you who know me know that I become very passionate about certain things. And when I latch on, I do not readily let go. A comment or two in the recent alert thread that got so heated got me thinking. Hence, I started a new thread instead of continually defending myself in that one and taking away from the intent of the original posting. I really am not trying to stir the pot here. I honestly just want answers. It's not so much about the board as it is about the differences in men vs women.

I have been around a very long time. As with anybody who has been around awhile, we tend to notice a pattern. The same topics seem to come and go, some more controversial than others.

But something has been really bothering me for a long time. I would really like an answer, as well as opinions.

First the race card. How dare anyone say anything negative about race. It's not allowed here and for obvious reasons. People become very hostile defending both sides of the fence. The recent alert of one of our well-respected members here was a perfect example. Because there was mention of his race, everybody jumped on the OP. Everybody let the OP know how they felt. The race debate is dealt with swiftly and harshly. Threads are shut down, mods come in and give points and/or vacations, or whatever is deemed appropriate. Ok, I understand this and agree with it. You get no argument from me.

Next the sex card. Men are king in the hobby-that has been made perfectly clear to us. We are merely whores on a silly whore board. We are called all kinds of bitches, cunts, sluts, whores, whatever the word of the day is. Rarely is anything done about it. Guys WK each other and pile on. It's almost as if the blinders are put on so nobody can see. Why is that? Why are the "men" allowed to treat us with such disrespect? Why is it that several women complain about the same person, or group of people, and it takes forever for something to be done? But if a woman does something to a guy, she is black balled so fast and talked about and run off the board. If a man calls a woman a bitch around here, he's told "don't do it again." If a woman calls a man an asshole or something, she gets a vacation or points. Why is the playing field not even?

Next is the weight card. I remember "over there" a big stink was made about the term TOAS and how it was insulting to the thinner women. I remember people being scolded for using the term. It wasn't ok to refer to someone as TOAS. Those women weren't told to grow thicker skin or to stop being offended. So why then, are there different standards when it comes to words describing ladies who do not fall under this category? Why is a lady "overly sensitive" if she gets pissed off when a guy says "why fuck a fat chick?" Why is it ok for a lady to describe another lady, whether another provider or not, in an insulting manner? Why the double standard? And why is the person who is defending against the insult jumped on and called a bitch or told to shut the hell up?

We are always told to be politically correct in an effort to not outcast others, to protect other's feelings and to be polite. But in certain instances, being PC gets one scolded.

I just don't get it.

I'm not a bitch. I'm really not. Passionate, yes. Fight for what's right, yes. Outspoken, yes, about certain things.

I try really hard to help protect my sisters against harm, and protect the guys from bad seeds. I try to interject humor into a lot of my postings, although some people just don't get it.

In real life I'm really quite quiet and shy if I don't know you, unless we are talking football. I have to force myself to mingle amongst people.

But I just don't understand all the one-sidedness and favoritism. It's not just this board. It's real life too. I may be "bitter" about certain things in my life, but against men, younger women, thinner women I am not. Hell, I would not go back in life for anything. I enjoy where I'm at. I love my age, I love my body, I love my sexuality, I love me. I don't hate people, nor do I hate on them. I am not too big to apologize when I am wrong. But I will not apologize for being who I am. But lack of knowledge, or lack of understanding, sometimes brings discontentment.

So do I cross the line when I am being politically correct, or do we, as humans, pick and choose what we are PC about? Are we less PC in the hobby than in our real lives? Are we less PC because we sit behind a computer and are not face to face with those we insult or attack or defend?

Maybe in my later years I actually desire an understanding of things that previously I could give two shits about. I dunno.

Meg

[Joe Smith]

Just my .02 cents, HH.

I understand your frustration and what you are saying, but being PC is different from the societal norm when you are talking about sex and attraction and you see that on this board.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that most guys do not prefer big women. Sure, there is a niche that does but for the most part, guys don't, (so all of you BBW's who have a nice clientele, I just want to reiterate that I know there is a market for you so don't get pissed.) No guys that I know of like BBW's so I am just talking from my own personal experiences.. I remember in college, when guys would not say shit if you got drunk and slept with an attractive woman, (and by "attractive", I mean under 115lbs despite how ugly she may have been), but if you got drunk and slept with a woman who needed to lose a few pounds, you never heard the end of it. That's just how guys are. I am not saying whether that's right or wrong, I'm just saying that's how guys are.

As far as race, that's more objective. People in 2010 should know better than to point that out as a "flaw." And that's why the OP was flamed in the link you posted about race, for her ignorant post. She was flamed for her ignorant conclusion - blaming race on what she perceived as a wrong.

In closing, guys will always find thinner women more attractive than bigger women. That's just how it will always be....How many guys here have a "rule of 100" motto? That'll never change. Should it? Probably. Will it? No.

The bottom line is that this is a buyers market and the guys are the buyers. So until that changes, what you find annoying in this market and on this board, you probably always will. I don't mean to sound harsh or rude, I'm just trying to be honest, and I'm just trying to answer your questions the best way I know how to do so.

[Guest030911]

by Meg
blah, blah, blah,,,,,

[blackspanishteacher]

Originally Posted by Joe Smith

In closing, guys will always find thinner women more attractive than bigger women. That's just how it will always be....How many guys here have a "rule of 100" motto? That'll never change. Should it? Probably. Will it? No.

Wow, that is a powerful closing statement. Which is a matter of opinion (which you stated earlier). How about "some guys" instead of generalizing the entire male population.

Yes there are those who prefer the rule of 100 and others who do not. It is all about personal preference.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Joe Smith]

Originally Posted by blackspanishteacher

Wow, that is a powerful closing statement. Which is a matter of opinion (which you stated earlier). How about "some guys" instead of generalizing the entire male population.

Yes there are those who prefer the rule of 100 and others who do not. It is all about personal preference.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Geez, really? I thought I made it a point in stating that I'm speaking from my own experiences and from generalizations from what I have read from this board.

Again, I don't mean to offend anyone. I'm strictly trying to shed some light on the OP's questions. I really have no dog in this hunt and I honestly could give a damn what guys like either way.

[QueenSophie]

(1) IS YUALL

(2) I AM SICK OF PROVIDERS IN DENIAL ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE

(3) WHAT IN THE HELL YOU EXSPECT WHEN YOU FUCK EVERY TOM,DICK,AND HARRY

1. If you are going to use slang, at least spell it right. Y'ALL...not YUALL
2. We are sick of you returning to spew
3. Dont be angry because Tom, Dick and Harry get laid and you dont. At least they are, which is more than I can say for you.

Seriously! There needs to be a way to cross reference an IP address with ANYONE who registeres here BEFORE they are allowed to post a new 17th handle in 4 days.

Seriously.......

[Randy4Candy]

Ladies, there are many more illusions prevalent in the hobby (and life) than just the illusion of passion. I'm sure that's a real news flash.

But, to get to the point, not "going with the flow" can get to be a bumpy ride. By the time most people read this thread, A**FU*K007's raw and unfortunate comments will be long gone. But, that attitude illustrates just another way of keeping a group "in their place." Kinda ugly, huh? Strictly speaking though, he's not going with the flow, either.

Manners aren't always easy - if one is trying to offer advice or point out something negative.

[Guest101610-2]

Well I am a bitch so here you go.....


I will never not use the term TOAS. I find it absolutely side splitting funny we are on a full circle with fat vs thin. THIS is funny!!!

And why aren't you guys laughing at this assfuck guy more? I have found him to be a great comic relief. Mostly because he thinks somehow he is really bothering anyone. You can't screw with soph, I don't care who you are.

Hey and here's more super free TRUE advice... if you ignore them, they get bored and go away. But in his case, it's just down right funny. I can't wait to see what he comes up with next. Come on boy, that's a good boy... yes roll over and wag your tail. now go fetch the ball. But it would be much more fun if you were creatively mean. I don't really know how to drop to your level in insults anymore. This might be fun. Try insulting me next and let me see what I can come up with in return. It's been along time since I pulled someone's asshole over their head... I wonder if I still have it.

[npita]

Before I address this, let me note a few things.

(1) I have a fiancee and I no longer hobby; and

(2) My best friend (for a long time) is a provider with whom I've never had a provider/client relationship. I greatly respect her opinion on many things both hobby and non-hobby related and as far as I'm concerned, her integrity is beyond reproach. I don't even question her judgment when she tells me I'm being a jerk or anything else I don't want to hear.

(3) Because of the above, I am neither pro client nor pro provider. I don't (and never did) buy into the brotherhood or sisterhood thing. To use my friend's words, I'm pro doing ``the right thing.''

Originally Posted by hotlips_houlihan

Most of you who know me know that I become very passionate about certain things. And when I latch on, I do not readily let go.

I think one should be passionate about things, but you also have to accept what goes along with that, one of which is to generate strong reactions, positive and negative, to the opinions you express. Also, you need to know when to let go if you don't want your point to degenerate into bickering and get lost.
[quote]

Hence, I started a new thread instead of continually defending myself in that one and taking away from the intent of the original posting.

It's also a good idea to remove yourself from your opinions and express them in an abstract way so that your opinions are not taken to be rants and to spend time choosing your words to be precise in what you say. If you have to defend yourself instead of your ideas, you failed to do that.

Threads are shut down, mods come in and give points and/or vacations, or whatever is deemed appropriate. Ok, I understand this and agree with it. You get no argument from me.

Personally, I think those threads are shut down because neither the people who start them nor the majority of participants can discuss what may be a perfectly legitimate topic without degenerating into personal attacks, not becasue the question itself has no merit.

Next the sex card

. Men are king in the hobby-that has been made perfectly clear to us. We are merely whores on a silly whore board.

Personally, I think that is only true to the extent that the customer is king in an business. As a provider, you have a great deal more latitude in choosing your clients than just about any other business that comes to mind. However, like those in any other business do (or should at least try to do), you need to seperate you from the services you provide.

We are called all kinds of bitches, cunts, sluts, whores, whatever the word of the day is.

And providers call guys cheap asses and other things as well. I agree that people should be able to express themselves better, but this is not academia and the hobby is not exactly the best place to seek out intellectual discussions about abstract ideas based on well thought out arguments from which all traces of a personal agenda have been eliminated. It's more like the hobby version of Fox News.

Rarely is anything done about it.

I don't think that is true. Unfortunately, there is no list of banned members, but I'd wager that there are many more banned male members than banned female members. Although ther are also many more male members than female members, the number of male members who actually post is much smaller, so I think that you'd find male members are banned with far greater frequency than providers. What I see is that most members want others to be banned instantly on their word alone or their personal dislike of what is said.

Guys WK each other and pile on. It's almost as if the blinders are put on so nobody can see. Why is that?

That's a good question which I believe you could answer by first removing your own blinders. Again, dissociating yourself as a person from the opinions you express will make it much easier to see things in perspective. Personally, I couldn't care less if I'm attacked personally, because beingoffended is a choice and I don't let people (especially people I don't even know) hold that kind of power over me.

But if a woman does something to a guy, she is black balled so fast and talked about and run off the board.

Women have resources like providerbuzz, dz411 and other bavkchannel resources that allow you to say just about anything without question. Here, you do have the ability to dispute what any guy does say about you, although most who decide to do so don't do it in a way that is conducive to making their cases. In addition, most guys don't let much stand in their way of seeing a provider they want to see.

If a man calls a woman a bitch around here, he's told "don't do it again." If a woman calls a man an asshole or something, she gets a vacation or points. Why is the playing field not even?

I'm trying to think of a provider who has been banned for that and the only one who comes to mind is one who was so bitter and nasty that I'm surprised she wasn't banned long ago. I'm also curious to know how you know that guys do not get pointed for those comments. Perhaps you can fill me

Next is the weight card

. I remember "over there" a big stink was made about the term TOAS and how it was insulting to the thinner women. I remember people being scolded for using the term.

I find that one weird in particular, since TOAS was one acronym for which I had a very difficult time finding a definition. How would you prefer guys to decribe providers in way that gives another guy a good mental picture of a provider?

Why is a lady "overly sensitive" if she gets pissed off when a guy says "why fuck a fat chick?" Why is it ok for a lady to describe another lady, whether another provider or not, in an insulting manner?

Personally, I think that sort of comment is insulting, but I also think guys do get warned for making those comments via pm (and get pointed for it.) Furthermore, instead of rrying to prevent guys from saying things like that, wouldn't you be much better off just giving guys all the rope they need to hang themselves so you who you do not want to see? Consider those sorts of comments to be a bonus for screening out bad clients. If providers did not see those guys, those guys would learn a lot faster than by issuing points.

We are always told to be politically correct in an effort to not outcast others, to protect other's feelings and to be polite.

Well, I would think it makes good business sense to not be off-putting to potential clients and it also makes good business sense to let clients tell you who they are by what they post. During the time I was on aspd, I went from being a newbie who thought the providers who posted were the providers I'd be better off seeing to the point that I would not see any provider who posted with any regularity there, because of what their posts eventually told me about them. I was happy to read any negative comments they posted because I thought I would be better off risking about 2k/month on providers I knew very little about.

But in certain instances, being PC gets one scolded.

For example? .

I'm not a bitch. I'm really not. Passionate, yes. Fight for what's right, yes. Outspoken, yes, about certain things.

How you are perceived when you express your opinions depends a great deal on how you express them, and especially on how well you eliminate the you from your ideas. In other words, abstract principles which are stated objectively are more influential than a personal opinion that comes across as a rant with limited applicability.

So do I cross the line when I am being politically correct, or do we, as humans, pick and choose what we are PC about?

In my opinion, it's not a matter of being PC, but a matter of thinking before typing so one can say something in a way that makes the point without initiating a knee jerk reaction (or responding with a knee jerk reaction based on what one assumes from the topic of a post.)

Are we less PC in the hobby than in our real lives? Are we less PC because we sit behind a computer and are not face to face with those we insult or attack or defend?

I'm the same in person that I am on the board. I have a thick skin because I value my opinion of myself more than I value the opinion of someone I hardly know. I personally like having someone call me an asshole in an argument, because as soon as I agree that I'm an asshole, the other person has little left to say, while making that person look pretty stupid, since I can keep right on making my point without going off on a tangent about whether or not I'm an asshole. Try it sometime. It really pisses off the person arguing with you. If this is a business to you, treat it like a business. You are selling a service, not yourself, so don't conflate those two things.

[Black Sedan]

I'm flabbergasted that someone could equate bias towards body weight to racism.

Really?

When did any civilization enslave people who ate too much or drank too many sugary beverages? Ship them across the ocean packed in a manner as to only deliver the strongest? Refuse them citizenship and equal protection? Send them to different schools? Intimidate them from voting? From protesting? Teach their children to be afraid of them?

Seriously, give me a fucking break.

I'm not saying that judgment based on body type is OK, but it is seriously not the same thing at all.

As for me, I have a type I like: 5'10", 125-135 thereabouts. A natural C would be nice. If she's white, not too tan, if at all. I'm not talking about how I choose friends or colleagues, I'm talking about with whom I fuck and share my most intimate thoughts.

Having written that... if I had two candidates for a job, all other things being equal, and one looked healthy, and the other looked obese, I'd choose the healthier looking person. Why? I'd surmise the obese one would be less productive, suffering from poorer health, and likely depression.

[pmdelites]

hotlips,

as npita suggested, be pasionate but know when to let go. side trip: remember the monkey who tried to get the cookie out of the cage but couldnt because his hand and the cookie wouldnt pass thru the bars?? a major lesson there - let go and adapt.

back on point -

like npita said... "In my opinion, it's not a matter of being PC, but a matter of thinking before typing so one can say something in a way that makes the point without initiating a knee jerk reaction (or responding with a knee jerk reaction based on what one assumes from the topic of a post.)"

in my opinion and belief, saying something is politically correct or incorrect is a shortcut way of putting a less informative label on something - kinda like making a sound bite out of it. this usually forces a fake distinction between good and bad or right and wrong, a distinction that is rarely correct. instead, i believe it'd be better to describe it as something you feel/believe/know is NOT considerate, respectful, sensitive, or compassionate. using the term "new york minute" or calling someone a "fat pig", tho short and catch, fails to fully describe what one is meaning. that what symbols do - represent a thought. sometimes the symbols do a great job. and sometimes they are lazy asses :^)

we all have things we like and dislike. that's why were different people.

however, i agree w/ you ...
if someone says or writes something that might be their opinion or belief ... and you feel/believe/know it is offensive, inconsiderate, disrespectful, insensitive, or not compassionate,
call it as you see it from your point of view [not for "all people", "most rational people", "all <insertFavoritEthnicHeritageHe re> people"]. but just call it and dont belabor the point.

[rcinokc]

I would never be able to moderate a board with the PC rules such as those in place here and many other places. I tend to be one who will give someone enough rope to hang themselves so to speak. Not because I enjoy seeing people hurt or offended, simply because I feel it is important to see people act closer to how they really are. Want to come on here and act a fool ? Go ahead as long as you know that as a provider it could hurt your business, and as a hobbyist it could make some providers opt not to see you. Know the risks, make your decision, and live with the outcome. In her original post, Meg referenced a thread that got "heated" over the issue of size, and linked one that involved race. I could be wrong, but I doubt that either thread starter sat down and thought to themselves "what can I post here that will offend people". In the case of the weight thread, I think the OP just stereotyped the client and assumed that he hobbied because his wife is large. She probably believes that most married men hobby because their wives are fat, or ugly, or don't give it up any more. As for the thread involving race, I have no doubt that the OP has issues with black people. I feel that she bought in to the stereotypes out there and probably never considered that the money issue involved could have been an honest mistake. Am I trying to excuse the behavior of the people who posted these threads ? Absolutely not, simply suggesting that the issue may have been ignorance as opposed to a desire to offend people. I know that being stereotyped is frustrating. When I was significantly overweight people were always shoving food at me. Eat this, do you need more, ready for lunch, you didn't eat very much and so on and so on. My employees, who I admit don't know me very well (my choice), see middle aged, successful, short hair, nice clothes, homeowner etc. and assume ultra conservative, which is pretty much the opposite of what I am really like. And it's really pretty much the same thing with the gender issue in the original post. Guys are often times reluctant to look at whatever character flaw it is that makes us hobby. We are, however pretty quick to assume that there must be something wrong with any woman who gets into the business. There has always been a negative stigma associated with being a provider, and unfortunately the very people that keep providers in business often buy in to the stereotype. That is the attitude that likely causes the lack of respect that some providers feel. While the frustration and desire to speak out are understandable, some people never will be able to look past their pre-concieved opinions. What works for me is to not let them make their problem, my problem.

[pmdelites]

Originally Posted by Black Sedan

I'm flabbergasted that someone could equate bias towards body weight to racism.

Really?

When did any civilization enslave people who ate too much or drank too many sugary beverages? Ship them across the ocean packed in a manner as to only deliver the strongest? Refuse them citizenship and equal protection? Send them to different schools? Intimidate them from voting? From protesting? Teach their children to be afraid of them?

Seriously, give me a fucking break.

I'm not saying that judgment based on body type is OK, but it is seriously not the same thing at all.

As for me, I have a type I like: 5'10", 125-135 thereabouts. A natural C would be nice. If she's white, not too tan, if at all. I'm not talking about how I choose friends or colleagues, I'm talking about with whom I fuck and share my most intimate thoughts.

Having written that... if I had two candidates for a job, all other things being equal, and one looked healthy, and the other looked obese, I'd choose the healthier looking person. Why? I'd surmise the obese one would be less productive, suffering from poorer health, and likely depression.

we all have criteria. some criteria are rational, some are productive, some are emotional, some are less informed or ill-thought out, some are pretty stupid, some are bass-ackward. but they are just criteria. it's only w/ context that we might find that one person's criteria is another person's bullshit.

so, in my opinion, you were doing pretty well until you wrote your final sentence - it seems to me to be a criteria without any supporting facts, heath or otherwise.

now, if you had pretty good research that backed up your claim about some or all of that, i'd be with you. but you dont, so i'm not.

[pmdelites]

Originally Posted by rcinokc

... Am I trying to excuse the behavior of the people who posted these threads ? Absolutely not, simply suggesting that the issue may have been ignorance as opposed to a desire to offend people. ...

What works for me is to not let them make their problem, my problem.

took a while to read thru that but what i left above are what i consider the gold nuggets of your post.

sometimes people do explicitly write something that some would consider offensive [assfuck comes to mind, tho one person thought he was rather funny].

but mostly it's because of what they've come to believe, whether thru ignorance of larger issues or going along w/ the crowd [mobocracy] or the way they were taught.

in either case, if a person does or says something that another person considers inconsiderate, offensive, or not compassionate, i support the 2nd person is voicing their opinion, esp. if it helps educate people or make them aware of something they didnt understand or comprehend before.

[lisa.lisa0302]

I knew this thread would be entertaining.

Black sedan, I absolutely love your assessment of obese people. Now from your standards and description of your likes I am considered obese.

Let me tell you something, I can outrun some of the lovely spinners, I am productive, and in good health. I can run a mile and not die on the spot. I take very good care of myself, I am proud of my full figured body and so are my clients.

I really do your enjoy assessment, funny MOST of my clients are lean, trim and in shape. Never have they called me unproductive. And they enjoyed my obese body thoroughly.

Does anybody have popcorn, I got the soda.