LE and Reviews

[marco2007]

I've been considering posting a couple of reviews about recent sessions and it occurred to me that there might be some danger in doing so. Isn't it possible for law enforcement to use reviews against the hobbyist and against the provider? We all know LE is lurking on the boards. The issue was really brought to light with the recent bust in Houston and subsequent postings on ASPD.

Any thoughts?

[enderwiggin]

I'm not a lawyer so I can't say anything with certainty. Hopefully one will chime in.

I believe that reviews don't constitute evidence of a crime in and of themselves. However, taken in conjunction with other evidence they might bolster the prosecutions case against a provider or hobbyist. For example, reviews in combination with phone records, providers accounting books, credit card receipts, surveillance footage... You get the picture.

Theoretically, anything typed in a review is a fantasy and there is no way to conclusively PROVE that they happened. As far as police departments are concerned, their vice departments are usually pretty thinly staffed and focus on large busts, streetwalkers, providers/managers/clients that may have links to other crimes, and/or high profile cases. They would have to be REALLY interested in you and your activities for them to go through the time, expense and hassle of building a case against you that would be based on your reviews.

Having worked for the largest, best funded and most efficient department of the government (the Army), it always surprises me that people have such high opinions of the capabilities and resources at hand for most government agencies. Getting anything done is an exercise in pure pigheadedness when you work for the government. Most employees are just trying to keep their seat at their desk safe and care about little else. And as far as resources, the computer you are on right now is likely more powerful, faster and has better access to information and more up-to-date software. I don't imagine the police department to be very different at all. I don't doubt that if they WANTED to come after someone, they'd succeed. But they are much more interested in getting in the newspaper and convincing the public they are doing good work than anything else. As such, I imagine the majority of their funding goes to street patrols, homicide, organized crime (gangs and such) and narcotics with everything else sharing a small slice of the resources.

That's just my opinion and thoughts on the matter. Please correct me if I'm misguided or wrong on any score and I'm eager to hear other people's input on this as well.

[npita]

Originally Posted by marco2007

I've been considering posting a couple of reviews about recent sessions and it occurred to me that there might be some danger in doing so. Isn't it possible for law enforcement to use reviews against the hobbyist and against the provider? We all know LE is lurking on the boards. The issue was really brought to light with the recent bust in Houston and subsequent postings on ASPD.

Any thoughts?

Yeah - The goverment had plenty of information regarding Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, yet weren't able to use it against him to the extent of revoking his visa. Why would they care more about trying to use reviews against a hobbyist/provider to try and build a misdemeanor case for which the only witnesses would be adversaries to the prosecution? At best it might be used to support a case once you've been busted, in which case, you're already in for the ride regardless of the outcome. A lot of paranoia focusses on the wrong things.

[Marcus78]

I know that everything I have ever written is merely creative, erotic fiction. Isn't what that what this site is? A place to share erotic tall-tales? How about you guys?

[DEAR_JOHN]

If they could have used reviews, they would have started that years ago.

There is no doubt in my mind that reviews were a part of BT (Houston bust of Escape and Wildflower locations), but only a small part. LE is not stupid and know what these hobby boards are all about. I have always thought the using $$ symbol versus $200 was about as silly as it gets. Do you think for a second that Officer Vice doesn't know what bbbj means?

I have often wondered if our reviews were actually used against the hobby, as a whole. It's like we find a UTR and review her, even in secured (LOL) areas, all we are doing is telling our buddies in that forum, but also awakening LE that there is a new gal in town.

Bottom line (IHMO) is that if LE could have brought us down due to reviews, they would have already done this years ago, before a lot of you even knew that ASPD even existed. Also remember that ASPD was a main source in Texas and some other places, but most cities have some sort of review board going on.

[Dstorm]

They would be hard to use against the provider, unless she links to them from her website. In that case, it could be assumed that she is aware of the review and agrees with it since she is using it as an advertisement.
Think about the implications if you could use anything someone else wrote about a person against them.

For the reviewer, LE could use your posts and reviews against you to try to counter some excuse like " i did not know this massage place gave BJ's too! honest".

But, if they have already busted you, they would not need anything else. Why go to the trouble of linking you to a handle, that handle to a thread that was posted from an IP that was linked to your internet account, from your computer...... see how hard that gets.
Even with the thousands of RIAA lawsuits against illegal downloaders, they always hit a brick wall proving who was actually behind the keyboard with the infringement occured*

That alone is good reason to keep your real identity and handle as speperate as you can.

[MMD]

Wouldn't the legal issue be determining that if you list rates AND activities, that by reading the review, the client has made an admission of "x" dollars for "y" activities?

[ANONONE]

You mean you guys really are getting laid for money?

Shit, I was just making this up and doing some creative writing.

Repeat after me: F-A-N-T-A-S-Y



--Anon

[flowerflower1]

yep pure fantasy....

[mca9276]

Originally Posted by MMD

Wouldn't the legal issue be determining that if you list rates AND activities, that by reading the review, the client has made an admission of "x" dollars for "y" activities?

MMD,

I see where you're coming from with the money in exchange for sex argument. However I think that's only relevent in an LE sting where you are actively involved with LE and are soliciting from them at the time. It wouldn't apply to reviews.

When it comes to solicitation LE has to be involved directly at the time and in a sense witness the crime as it's ocurring. I don't think they can arrest you for admitting that you solicited someone else in the past. In other words I think LE has to catch the client in the act of solicitation.

It's the same as if you run a red light, if the cop didn't see it, then you didn't do it. Same thing with driving drunk, if they don't catch you in the act then they can't arrest you after the fact, even if you admit it later.

In other words you can only be arrested if you are currently engaged in the act of solicitation. You can't be arrested for past solicitation, and reviews are past tense.

I'm speaking generally, each state or local municipality has it's own laws against solicitation. However I think this concept would apply across the board. It would be great if a criminal lawyer would comment and explain it further.

[Dstorm]

Originally Posted by MMD

Wouldn't the legal issue be determining that if you list rates AND activities, that by reading the review, the client has made an admission of "x" dollars for "y" activities?

After the fact it does not mean much. If LE did not witness it and the other party is not going to come foreward and testify that your review is an accurate account of what happened, then there is not much that can be done with th review all by it's self.

Just like I post on a martial arts BB. I had a post about how I kicked this guys ass (he deserved it). All by it's self, it means nothing, I cant be arrested because of it.
There is an off, off, off,off chance the recipient of said beating might recognize the scenario from my post and say "hey, that's the guy that kicked my ass". Then contact the cops, the subpoena the BBS for the IP of the thread poster (me), then subpoena the ISP for the account info (mine), pull a pic from my license from the DMV, mix it with five other similar looking guys ans ask the victim if he could identify his "assailant". If he picks me, THEN I might have something to worry about.
The big difference in the review versus the fight thread is the prescence of someone willing to come forward and press charges.

As far as reviews being "admissions", it's possible, but not likely. If LE has enough desire to find out who you really are from reviews, you have done something much worse than a class B misdemeanor (which is what solicitation is) to warrant that kind of attention.

[yardape]

The subject is fair game and the truth is nobody has a universal answer. Try to know your own community, follow the local news, etc. LE's priorities at any given time will vary from place to place.

[tracer]

Ender is right in stating that it could bolster a case against a provider, but I would think only if they linked or refer to that review on their site or some other way. Otherwise, they would have no knowledge of it.

[GneissGuy]

They can be used to harass you or embarrass you.

They might be used to get a wiretap, search warrant, etc., that would then lead to better evidence.

They could give LE leads that help them otherwise build a case against you. For instance, you wouldn't want to list an address that's too exact.

They can stir up neighbors, get you recognized by some real world acquaintance. Consider for instance, the spouse getting hold of your reviews.

Agencies like Child Protective Services don't always worry about details like proof and reasonable doubt.

Civil case have a lower burden of proof than criminal cases. You don't have a right to remain silent in a civil case.

Lying to an officer in the course of an investigation can be a crime in itself, so don't claim the post is a fantasy. Just shut up.

Defense lawyers cost money. Justice costs money, time, hassles, and perhaps some jail time. You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.

You should always be a little paranoid and realize there's some risk. It may not be much risk, but realize it's there. Don't get cocky and stoopid.

[Guest121212]

Originally Posted by GneissGuy

They can be used to harass you or embarrass you.

They might be used to get a wiretap, search warrant, etc., that would then lead to better evidence.

They could give LE leads that help them otherwise build a case against you. For instance, you wouldn't want to list an address that's too exact.

They can stir up neighbors, get you recognized by some real world acquaintance. Consider for instance, the spouse getting hold of your reviews.

Agencies like Child Protective Services don't always worry about details like proof and reasonable doubt.

Civil case have a lower burden of proof than criminal cases. You don't have a right to remain silent in a civil case.

Lying to an officer in the course of an investigation can be a crime in itself, so don't claim the post is a fantasy. Just shut up.

Defense lawyers cost money. Justice costs money, time, hassles, and perhaps some jail time. You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.

You should always be a little paranoid and realize there's some risk. It may not be much risk, but realize it's there. Don't get cocky and stoopid.

Best advice in the thread so far, IMHO.

Reviews are used differently by different jurisdictions - to echo another poster, you REALLY need to have the pulse of your community and know how you may be impacted (and how the person you are leaving the review for may be impacted).

One VERY disturbing trend is use of reviews after a plea agreement as guidance for a pre-sentencing investigator (usually a probation officer that pulled the rotation) to make recommendations for sentencing if (when) penalty was not part of the plea arrangement - it happens more often than you may think. This was a more common occurrence on the federal level but many state and municipal courts now have adopted the same system, so the prosecutor will stuff as much as they can into the case file and you're stuck with a larger bill from your attorney to object to the pre-sentencing report . . .

Also, I strongly encourage ANYONE with the delusion that review cannot lead to an arrest and conviction to RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH and you'll find the Desert Divas case in Maricopa County, Arizona (check the Maricopa County Superior Court files after you get the names of some of the defendants . . . for that you can begin with The Arizona Republic). Instances of convictions based SOLELY on a review (of both the client and the Escort) exist now as precedent in cases related to that specific "incident".

There are as many arguments I can make for reviews as I can make against them, however, I understand the need for the community to HAVE them . . . it will ALWAYS be a double-edged sword until such time as the endeavor is legalized (I'm in my young thirties and my future great grandchildren won't live long enough to see that in this country most likely).

Bottom line, use your own best judgment, you can only do as you see fit based on the level to which you are willing to extend yourself within this endeavor. Keep in mind too, the preferences of the person you may be reviewing.

I enjoy the unique perspective of being a very well established professional Escort with an existing client base . . . I seldom accept new clients, I have no need for the possible attention a review may bring . . . and I reside in metropolitan area with multiple jurisdictions interpreting use of a review against a client and/or an Escort or provider differently, some that will even attach reviews to a booking slip and use reviews to charge for conspiracy to commit the act of prostitution for SIMPLY SHOWING UP to an outcall (that's right, just showing up - no other overt act, not a word uttered - booked by a call taker and the "client" LEO never speaking directly to the Escort).

This is a legal gray area that will ultimately be settled by appeal by the few that may have the resources to see it through. Most just roll over and take it.

Be safe everyone!

Kisses,

- Jackie

And, PS - I've never had anything less than a stellar review in my entire career, but I still only have ONE review in any venue I know of and I continue to pursue its removal . . . does a lack of reviews hurt MY business? No - not at all . . Might a lack of reviews hinder a newer lady? Certainly. Even though I have not a single poor review, I still feel strongly enough in MY specific circumstance to have them removed for my peace of mind . . . further, no client I have would ever leave a review, I wouldn't see them again, and that would break their heart . . .