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Old 06-27-2017, 01:31 PM   #1
cinderbella
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Default Day 15: Money, Prostitution and Misogyny

Adriel Trott, Associate Professor in Philosophy at Wabash College writes:


"In 'Debt:The First 5,000 Years, David Graeber writes:

One could see how the metaphor of the porne might seem particularly appropriate. A woman "common to the people"-as the poet Archilochos put it-is available to everyone. In principle, we shouldn't be attracted to such an undiscriminating creature. In fact, of course, we are. And nothing was both so undiscriminating, and so desirable, as money."


"This is in the context of explaining why Greek aristocrats thought money was garish. The conception of women behind this critique of money is telling. Women have value because they are inaccessible and restricted. Men protect and isolate their women to preserve this value, which is not based on the woman's unique personality, appearance, wit or strength, but on the extent to which she is accessible to other men. The less accessible, the more valuable. The less accessible, the more desirable. How one is a woman, either parenthenos, virgin or gyne, wife or mother, is determined by whether anyone has access to her or not. In the case of gyne, your husband and your sons have access to you. The power of Athena as parthenos is in part her refusal of access to anyone.


'Porne' means prostitute in Greek and it comes from the word meaning to export for sale. The prostitute then is the woman who is accessible to everyone and thus not worth as much. The obscenity of money is thus associated with the distaste for the woman who is made accessible to everyone, and thus not even seeming like woman, having no value. And yet, of course, as Graeber writes, we are attracted to this accessible woman, who men want but know they shouldn't. The restriction on commerce is required to restrict our base desires just like the restriction on prostitution is required to save men from their base desires.


But unlike money, the woman being exchanged has her own desires. The analogy between money and woman depends on defining woman in terms of degrees of sexual accessibility and defining woman as a commodity with no desire of her own. Money might start to accumulate on its own in the same way that women might start to desire. While money might seem to be the great equalizer, as a universal measure it points to the way that woman is viewed as a universal measure of man, where the least inaccessible woman is worth the most and the more inaccessible women he can accumulate the more he is worth. On this account, money began to work as money because women already functioned as measures of men based on varying degrees of accessibility and distribution."

-Article written by Adriel Trott ^^^^^^





I wrote this out instead of copy/paste because I wanted to understand it all. I found it when I googled "misogyny and prostitution" in order to understand some of what is posted here. Ironically, articles featuring the biblical story of "The Woman at the Well" surfaced in search. I won't get into that on here, but I learned so much today from my google search and it goes without saying that what is old is new again. There is nothing new under the sun.
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Old 06-27-2017, 02:37 PM   #2
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Graeber references on a sex work board... interesting. Personally, I find him to be more than a little pompous. Besides that, the quoted text doesn't really get to how misogyny relates to the selling of sex.

Yes, sex workers are maligned and devalued. The underlying reasons why aren't really addressed in this piece. In my estimation, we're met with the most violence and degradation not because we're accessible to any and everyone all the time, but when we assert our boundaries. In the moments when our desire or rather lack of desire doesn't line up with this notion of our supposed limitless accessibility, we are punished. Provoking male rejection feelings is far more dangerous to me than my openness as a sometimes sexually available being.

Thanks for opening up this conversation.
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Old 06-27-2017, 04:15 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Lena Duvall View Post
.....sex workers are maligned and devalued......
The problem of "value" originates with a whore's decision to sell herself..... From that moment on her value will be discussed and attacked and she will be seen as a product.... not as a person....

The thing most of you fail to acknowledge is that initial decision to set aside your individuality and set a price tag on yourself is what initiates the process...
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Old 06-27-2017, 04:26 PM   #4
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Sex workers sell their services, not their bodies. If setting a price for time + labor + services makes one a product and not a person, then why doesn't the same hold true for other workers? Especially those who engage in more arduous manual labor than even sex workers. Athletes, fire fighters, security guards and so on...

What I think the piece misses is that misogynists hate sex workers not only because we demand value for our services but because of their own loathing of sex(uality). And when a man who is a coward hates himself for his own sexual desires and harbors a sense of shame, it is far easier to project the detriments of his hatred onto the supposed "weaker sex." Hence the compulsion to dictate and control every single aspect of women's sexual expression. One man can trash a woman for being too prudish on one day and depending on how the wind blows the next day, disrespect another woman for being a slut.

At this point, it's no surprise that some people view sex workers as not-people. But what I don't hear fellow members of our loose virtual community acknowledging is: if it is true that sex workers exist to be perpetually degraded because we are not really people anymore, what does that say about those who believe this lie, yet still visit sex workers?
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Old 06-27-2017, 04:55 PM   #5
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Misogynists hate women, not sex workers per se.

There are cases of female surgeons right here in Texas who have been murdered by their own husbands. I was sad to read men posting in comments that somehow it was justified, for a wife to be murdered by her husband. Despite the fact that the victim was a well respected surgeon.

Look at the popularity of the show "Sister Wives", I was reminded of that situation when reading this article.



Anyway, I thought the article was interesting. It reminded me of the sad posts on this board and the contempt of some that never goes away, as it has through out time.
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Old 06-27-2017, 05:24 PM   #6
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classifying a woman that sells sex as a whore does not make a man a misogynist. The problem lies in the self loathing of the whore that cannot accept the reality of her choices that tries to assign blame for her feelings on others.

There are many well balanced whores here that know the reality of the kind of men many of us are that use the label.

An interesting aspect of these arguments is that they are made, almost always, by old whores...... The personal self loathing a woman must deal with in her 40s or 50s that is turning tricks to make ends meet resigning herself to a life on her knees or back channels itself to a a hatred of men that refuse to glamorize what they do.....

We do have a few well balanced whores that seem to have found their emotional well being but they are rare.... surprisingly they do not cry out "misogynist" every time a man disagrees with himself..... Nor are they expending time and energy seeking some recognition of a problem that is created and exists only for the whores resenting the life they lead.
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Old 06-27-2017, 05:52 PM   #7
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Such a saddening yet valid point.

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Originally Posted by cinderbella View Post
Misogynists hate women, not sex workers per se.

There are cases of female surgeons right here in Texas who have been murdered by their own husbands. I was sad to read men posting in comments that somehow it was justified, for a wife to be murdered by her husband. Despite the fact that the victim was a well respected surgeon...
I was limiting my thoughts to the specific context of how misogyny relates to sex work. But it is totally true that it's important to examine how misogynists treat women who have never even engaged in sex work and should therefore be treated as more quote-unquote respectable based on normative standards. Misogynists treat women poorly in general and direct even more vitriol and hatred toward particular women when they believe they can get away with doing so to a greater extent.
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Old 06-27-2017, 05:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whispers View Post
classifying a woman that sells sex as a whore does not make a man a misogynist. The problem lies in the self loathing of the whore that cannot accept the reality of her choices that tries to assign blame for her feelings on others.

There are many well balanced whores here that know the reality of the kind of men many of us are that use the label.

An interesting aspect of these arguments is that they are made, almost always, by old whores...... The personal self loathing a woman must deal with in her 40s or 50s that is turning tricks to make ends meet resigning herself to a life on her knees or back channels itself to a a hatred of men that refuse to glamorize what they do.....

We do have a few well balanced whores that seem to have found their emotional well being but they are rare.... surprisingly they do not cry out "misogynist" every time a man disagrees with himself..... Nor are they expending time and energy seeking some recognition of a problem that is created and exists only for the whores resenting the life they lead.


????? WTF get back in your cage! Holy shit you have a vile temper and an absolutely disgusting overwhelming stench. No wonder your 2 ex wives left your pathetic ass. DAMN!

Whispers must be in the magazine business, 'cause he's got ISSUES!!
Whispers, who's gonna deliver all that BAGGAGE you got??? You overreacted big time to some simple words I posted. hahaha you took it personally!!!
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Old 06-27-2017, 06:40 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by cinderbella View Post
????? WTF get back in your cage! Holy shit you have a vile temper and an absolutely disgusting overwhelming stench. No wonder your 2 ex wives left your pathetic ass. DAMN!

temper? LOL... I'm rather calm and not worked up in any way....

I left wife # 1.... She should left but didn't and expected me to come back for several years after..... Wife #2 left but not before realizing she had been replaced with a younger hotter model on the side a few years prior....


Whispers must be in the magazine business, 'cause he's got ISSUES!!

Whispers, who's gonna deliver all that BAGGAGE you got??? I tend to prefer FEDEX when shipping things.....

You overreacted big time to some simple words I posted. hahaha you took it personally!!!
Nope... Not at all..... Just playing with the cards as they are dealt..... It's your game....

you should draft responses off line and read through them before posting if you don't want the emotion to show through when a nerve is struck....
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Old 06-27-2017, 06:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lena Duvall View Post
But it is totally true that it's important to examine how misogynists treat women who have never even engaged in sex work and should therefore be treated as more quote-unquote respectable based on normative standards. Misogynists treat women poorly in general and direct even more vitriol and hatred toward particular women when they believe they can get away with doing so to a greater extent.
so... What kind of guy treats the women in his personal life as a lady always acting the old fashioned gentlemen he was raised to be........ spoils them...... takes them on nice trips... supports their education and career choices.... provides a life for them that allows them to do as they wish......

but calls a woman that sells sex for money a whore?

Misogynists do not tend to be old fashioned romantic gentlemen do they?

Does the fact that a man wants to treat a whore in a manner less respectful or pay to do things to a whore that he would would never do to the mother of his children make him a misogynist.

The label "Misogynist" flies around here as the answer to anything a whore finds offensive here. your cause is tainted by reality....
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