Me again.. with the real and the hypothetical

[TxBrandy]

I saw this link elsewhere and would value the opinions you give here.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/crimebas...Antoniotx78225

The text:

DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF OFFENSE
NOTIFIED OF PROVISIONS OF TEXAS CRIME VICTIM ACT: C, W1 AND W2 ARE
DETECTIVES ASSIGNED TO SAPD VICE. W3 IS A SUPERVISOR ASSIGNED TO SAPD VICE.
W4 IS AN OFFICER ASSIGNED TO THE TECHNICAL SURVIELLANCE UNIT AND WAS IN
CHARGE OF VIDEO AND AUDIO EQUIPMENT. W5 IS AN OFFICER ASSIGNED TO THE EAST
PATROL SERVICE AREA AND WORKS IN FULL UNIFORM.
ON THE LISTED DATE AND TIME I RAN A SEARCH FOR ESCORTS ON THE WEB PAGE
BACKPAGE.COM. THE AD STATED SHE PROVIDED "THAT GIRLFRIEND EXPERIENCE NEVER
THOUGHT OF...I'M THAT CHIC". I RESPONDED TO THE AD BY CALLING THE PHONE
NUMBER LISTED. I SPOKE WITH A FEMALE THAT TOLD ME THE AREA SHE WAS IN AND TO
CALL BACK ONCE I ARRIVED THERE. ONCE IN THE AREA SHE GAVE TO CALL FROM, "ATT
CENTER DRIVE AND IH 35 N, I CALLED BACK AND THE FEMALE STATED SHE WAS
STAYING AT THE SUPER 8 MOTEL LOCATED NEARBY ON THE ACCESS ROAD OF IH 35. I
WAS WORKING IN AN UNDERCOVER CAPACITY, DRESSED IN CIVILIAN CLOTHES AND
DRIVING AN UNMARKED VEHICLE. I ARRIVED AT THE LISTED OFFENSE LOCATION WHERE

0048268301009002?????? I CALLED THE FEMALE AGAIN AND SHE GAVE THE MOTEL ROOM NUMBER SHE WAS IN.
I RELAYED THE LOCATION TO THE LISTED W'S AND THEY TOOK UP POSITIONS IN THE
AREA. I WALKED UP TO THE MOTEL ROOM AND ENTERED AS THE SP HAD TOLD ME SHE
WOULD LEAVE IT OPEN AND TO COME IN. ONCE IN THE MOTEL ROOM THE SP ASKED IF I
WANTED A THIRTY MINUTE SESSION OR AN HOUR. I REPLIED THAT I WANTED TO SPEND
AN HOUR WITH HER AND SHE STATED THAT SHE CHARGED A ONE HUNDRED FIFTY DOLLAR
($150.00) DONATION. I ONLY HAD TWENTY DOLLAR BILLS AND THE SP STATED SHE
COULDNT MAKE CHANGE SO I GAVE HER ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY WHICH SHE PLACED
INTO HER PURSE. I ASKED THE SP HOW MUCH EXTRA SHE CHARGED FOR THE "BOOTY"
(STREET TERM FOR ANAL INTERCOURSE) AND SHE STATED "YOU KNOW WE CANT TALK
ABOUT THAT". THE SP THEN ASKED THAT I UNDRESS AND SHE WOULD DO THE SAME. I
TOOK OFF MY SHIRT AND THE SP PULLED DOWN HER DRESS TOP REVEALING HER
BREAST'S. THE SP THEN SAT ON THE BED AND PULLED UP HER SKIRT WHILE SPREADING
HER LEGS TO SHOW HER VAGINA AS SHE WAS NOT WEARING ANY PANTIES. THE SP ASKED
FOR ME TO CONTINUE TO UNDRESS BY TAKING OFF MY SHORTS. I HAD TAKEN OFF MY
SHORTS AND WAS DOWN TO MY UNDERWEAR WHEN I ASKED THE SP IF SHE WAS GOING TO
START ME OFF WITH A "BLOWJOB" (COMMON STREET TERM FOR FELLATIO) TO WHICH THE
SP AGAIN STATED SHE DOESNT TALK ABOUT IT. I APPROACHED THE SP WHO WAS NOW
SITTING ON THE EDGE OF THE BED AND WANTED ME TO TAKE MY UNDERWEAR OFF. THE
SP HAD UNWRAPPED A CONDOM AND HAD IT IN HER MOUTH AS SHE GRABBED MY PENIS
WHEN I LOWERED MY UNDERWEAR. THE SP STATED "LETS GET STARTED" WHICH I
BELIEVED TO BE THE SP PLACING THE CONDOM ON MY PENIS WITH HER MOUTH AND THEN
PERFORMING FELLATIO. AT THIS TIME I BACKED AWAY FROM THE SP AND GAVE THE
SIGNAL THAT A PROSTITUTION CASE HAD BEEN MADE. THE W'S THEN KNOCKED ON THE
MOTEL ROOM DOOR AND THE SP OPENED IT AFTER BEING INFORMED VERBALLY BY THE
W'S THAT THEY WERE POLICE OFFICERS. I WAS HANDCUFFED AND TAKEN OUT OF THE
ROOM BY W2 IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN MY UNDERCOVER STATUS. DUE TO THE SP'S
ACTIONS WHILE I WAS IN THE ROOM WITH HER, SHE HAD THE INTENT TO PERFORM
SEXUAL ACTS WITH ME FOR REMUNERATION TO INCLUDE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE AND
PAGE 01 OF 99

0048268301009003�???

DATE: 06-30-10 SAN ANTONIO POLICE DEPARTMENT �����������
TIME: 2004 OFFENSE/INCIDENT REPORT CASE: 00482683/01

FELLATIO AS IS THE COMMON MEANING OF GIRLFRIEND EXPERIENCE AS SHE WAS
ADVERTISING IN HER AD. THE SP WAS POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED BY THE W'S AND THE
PROSTITUTION CASE WILL BE FILED AT LARGE.

My response from elsewhere:

Playing devil's advocate here (cuz y'all know I LOVE to do that shit and
start a good debate LOL). As defined by the above penal code: WHERE IS
THE CRIME?



Did she offer, agree, or engage in sexual conduct for a fee? No. He
asked how much for an hour (an hour of what? Monopoly? Checkers?) and
she gave him a price for a donation (again, she didn't state what the
money was for). When he did specifically ask for certain conduct she DID
NOT offer, agree, or engage in that activity. Not verbally, nothing is
recorded.

Ok so she had a condom unwrapped ... in her mouth ... and she grabbed
his penis ... at which point he BELIEVED she was going to give him a
blow job. Maybe she was just going to try it on for size? (I KNOW, like I
said playing devils advocate here). If condoms and money was what it
takes for a bust I'd be in trouble everytime I purshased Trojans at
Wal-Mart. (I know I'm being silly)

BUT the fact remains that a verbal offer, agreement, or engagement in
prostitution did not occur.

Thoughts please?

[SOLO]

THE AD STATED SHE PROVIDED "THAT GIRLFRIEND EXPERIENCE NEVER
THOUGHT OF...I'M THAT CHIC".

The prosecutor could probably make the case that "girlfriend experience" is common slang for a specific activity, namely paid sexual activity. There are no other reasonable definitions for the term "girlfriend experience" that are not related to paid sex. Thus, sexual services were offered in her ad, even if they weren't verbally contracted in person.

The typical ad: "I'm smart, pretty, and I'm total GFE. $250/hr. Ask me about my L1/L2 special!" You just offered sexual intercourse for $250/hr. and/or a handjob/blowjob at a special rate. That's illegal.

A safe(r) ad: "I'm smart, pretty, and I guarantee you'll enjoy your time with me. Let's spend an hour together soon. $250." You offered to entertain him for $250/hr. Maybe you'll show him your stamp collection. The waters get a bit muddy when it's posted on a site like this; would a reasonable person come here looking for other stamp aficionados? Maybe, but probably not. Either way, that ad is probably generic enough that it would be more difficult to prove sexual services were offered.

[TxBrandy]

I would think that whereas "girlfriend experience" is a popular slang term for a sexual encounter, there is a possibility that it could just be a dinner, movie, and companionship and doesn't necessarily mean sexual conduct.

"Booty" may be slang for anal intercourse as assumed in the report, but it also has the meaning of pirate treasure. Yes I know, irrelevant to the situation at hand but when a slang term is not properly defined in the law, can it be a basis for prosecution? Especially if you argue that the "GFE" you were offering has the possiblity of meaning something other than the assumed meaning (or the "well-known" meaning)?

Yes I know, nitpicking here.... LE would just roll their eyes at me and say "yea riiiiight" LOL

[sky_wire]

At trial, the prosecutor will ask the police officer: “Based on your education, training, and experience, what is the meaning of ‘girl friend experience’?” The cop would then deliver a long narrative to the jury about the meaning of gfe. The defendant could cross examine the cop about possible alternative meanings until hell freezes over, but the cop, who is a professional witness for the state, won’t budge from his definition.

Cases like this are won or lost during jury selection. The goal is to get at least one person on the jury with a defense slant who will demand a money for sex deal (even though it’s not required by law). Another goal is to get a person who will be deeply offended that police are pulling out their cocks on the job. “What’s the bigger offense ladies and gentlemen of the jury? Prostitution or police waiving their dicks in your daughter’s face?“ There are lots of other things.

Even though this is Texas, juries have a fairly liberal view towards prostitution. DA’s never want to try prostitution cases because they are hard to win. Vice is a very sleazy business that shocks Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Citizen. Good citizens are horrified to learn that cops are waiving their cocks in our daughter’s faces. Fortunately for the prosecution, women charged with prostitution almost NEVER want to go to trial. Funny how things like that work.

[sky_wire]

Originally Posted by TxBrandy

Did she offer, agree, or engage in sexual conduct for a fee? No. He
asked how much for an hour (an hour of what? Monopoly? Checkers?) and
she gave him a price for a donation (again, she didn't state what the
money was for). When he did specifically ask for certain conduct she DID
NOT offer, agree, or engage in that activity.

Welcome to the world of legal triva.

The statue reads:

Tex. Penal Code § 43.02 (2010)

§ 43.02. Prostitution


(a) A person commits an offense if he knowingly:

(1) offers to engage, agrees to engage, or engages in sexual conduct for a fee; or

(2) solicits another in a public place to engage with him in sexual conduct for hire.
　
　
***********

The law says “knowingly” not “intentionally.” That is the answer to your question. Here's why.....

Tex. Penal Code § 6.03 (2010)

§ 6.03. Definitions of Culpable Mental States


(a) A person acts intentionally, or with intent, with respect to the nature of his conduct or to a result of his conduct when it is his conscious objective or desire to engage in the conduct or cause the result.

(b) A person acts knowingly, or with knowledge, with respect to the nature of his conduct or to circumstances surrounding his conduct when he is aware of the nature of his conduct or that the circumstances exist. A person acts knowingly, or with knowledge, with respect to a result of his conduct when he is aware that his conduct is reasonably certain to cause the result.

*********

That's why putting an envelope full of money on top of the dresser followed by a gfe, without a single word spoken, is all it takes to commit the offense. A person need only act knowingly, not intentially. He knows that “his conduct is reasonably certain to cause the result.” The conduct is putting the evelope full of money on top of the dresser. The result his conduct is reasonably certain to cause is the gfe.
　
*******

Soapbox time. ------ People view the requirement that the state need only prove knowingly vs. intentionally as a fundamental erosion of our civil liberties. Some statues criminalize even reckless conduct. Soon merely negligent conduct will be a criminal offense in certain situations. The step after that will be when the state just throws people in jail whenever it wants to.

[TxBrandy]

Thank you for your answer. In your opinion (and not knowing whether you are an attorney or not), based on the case report in the first post and assuming she evoked the right to remain silent as soon as the police showed up, is she guilty of offering, accepting, or engaging in an act of prostitution? If yes, is it because her ad stated a GFE experience?

That's probably asking a bit much with only the facts as we know them. What if her ad stated "Let's spend an hour together for $250"?

And, in this case, is an INTENT a crime when nothing is stated?

[TxBrandy]

Ha, typing at the same time gotta love it...

[TxBrandy]

Originally Posted by sky_wire

That's why putting an envelope full of money on top of the dresser followed by a gfe, without a single word spoken, is all it takes to commit the offense. A person need only act knowingly, not intentially. He knows that “his conduct is reasonably certain to cause the result.” The conduct is putting the evelope full of money on top of the dresser. The result his conduct is reasonably certain to cause is the gfe.
　

Nevermind, you answered my previous question as I was typing it. In the above scenario would that not mean that the client has committed a crime yet the provider has not? If the client "knowingly" placed the envelope full of money expecting GFE services or whatever, and the provider does not acknowledge in any way that there is an envelope there, is she guilty? As far as I know there was an actual letter in the envelope which he placed there along with his keys and cell phone.

[sky_wire]

Originally Posted by TxBrandy

In your opinion (and not knowing whether you are an attorney or not)...

I admit nothing and deny everything.

[TxBrandy]

Hey thought that was one of my motto's!!! :-)

[WetVelvetSAT]

Hi,

Couldn't he had made the bust after she pulled out her breast and flashed her kitty since she had already put the $ in her purse....why wait until she put the condom on his c*ck and started giving him a bj before busting her.....(maybe it was the difference between a public lewdness case or prostitution case?)and if you noticed, it took 5 witnessess to make that bust....wow!

I, also, noticed her name wasn't entered.....what does that mean when they don't put their name in the report?

Sincerely,
Wet

[Chica Chaser]

Originally Posted by TxBrandy

I CALLED BACK AND THE FEMALE STATED SHE WAS
STAYING AT THE SUPER 8 MOTEL LOCATED NEARBY ON THE ACCESS ROAD OF IH 35.

A Super8? Really? Can't she do better than a Super8? Does the actual motel make a difference to us hobbyists?...It does for me

[TxBrandy]

I prefer a LaQuinta or RedRoofInn, still affordable in case I get a no show or cancel but nicer than Super 8 or Motel 6

Sorry, since I'm not a HDH I can't afford to get a suite at the Omni. I don't want to just break even or risk losing that money if something falls through.

[Chica Chaser]

I guess I'm just a snob! With all the deals on Priceline and Hotwire I can usually get a more upscale hotel for less than $100/night, and I'm constantly on the road for work. The closer to the actual date, the more and better the deals are.

I can see your point, if you are getting the room for one particular session/client and the room cost is coming out of your fee. I pretty much assumed that a lady will get a room and home base from there, then see several clients over a couple days and spread the room cost out.

[TxBrandy]

LOL Traveling ladies do that I'm sure and it works great for them. Personally, when I don't have an actual incall, I'll rent a room for one client locally and yea ....

Oh hell, I'll still stay at a Red Roof Inn or LaQuinta even when traveling, the more money I can pocket! (But I guess in a way I'm a lesser scale snob as I still am not cheap enough to get a Super 8 or Motel 6). But that's just me.....