So How Did We Get To The "Stand Your Ground Doctrine"

[Jackie S]

This entire Zimmerman-Martin case has got me to thinking how we arrived at the point where so many States have passed Laws similiar to the Stand Your Ground Law in Florida.

I will not go any further back than 1965, that is when I became an adult.

The politics of the mid '60's and early '70's was based on the perception that Law and Order would always prevail. Citizens were encouraged to depend more, and more on the police to take care of the criminal element. Through the Jimmy Carter years, it became the norm for people to be taught "if ever confronted by a criminal, never resist in any fashion". The idea was to cowar down in a fetal position and depend on the benevolence of the criminal to not harm you.

This attitude prevailed untill the criminals figured it out. They had free reign to prey upon citizens with impunity. The drug wars of the '90's and to the present produced a type of criminal that cared nothing for human life, and looked upon the general populas as nothing but prey to be slaughtered.

Remember in the late '90's when we were encourged to simply hand over anything to the criminal, just hope and pray no harm would come to you.

A lot of this started to change when one particular crime, car jackings, started to escalate. Criminals figured out that dead witnesses were not going to talk, so the murder of innocent citizens began to become the norm in these types of crimes. In Houston, a couple of particularilly brutal carjackings, one ending in the death of a Rice University Professor, started a trend where law abiding citizens said enough.

State Legislatures began to take notice, and began to act. Many passed laws allowing law abiding citizens to carry concealed guns, and set forth standards regulating when force was appropriate. This did make criminals take pause, nothing more aggravating than a 357 slug in the brain.

State Law Makers went further, saying, in affect, "why should law abiding citizens have to curl up into the fetal position and be at the mercy of the scum of society". So, they expanded the laws to what we have now. In short, if a thug threatens you, blow his fukin brains out.

It sounds good, the bad guys should loose in the end. But, it also leaves us with the mess that is going on in Florida.

Was Zimmerman an over zealous night watchman who instigated a confrontation with a Black man, which ended up in the death of an innocent young man, or, was Travon Martin a thug out casing houses for later break ins, and when caught, and identified, decided that a dead witness would not be a good witness, and attempted to beat George Zimmermans head into the pavement, untill that 9mm slug stopped the action?

There are now attempts to to scale back the laws that allow citizens to defend themselves. Perhaps the laws have gone too far.

Some will say, "if one innocent man is killed because of these laws, then they should be changed".

Some will say, "if one innocent citizen is saved because the law allowed him to defend himself, then they should not be tampered with".

These are going to be tough questions for all of the States to consider. We can hope that when the discussions take place, they will be done in a much more sane atmosphere than what we are witnessing in Florida at this time.

[i'va biggen]

You could always use deadly force in your home,but it was illegal to use it if you were being threatened on the street.

[trailor]

Not true. Stand Your Ground has been on the books or in the case law of most states for decades if not a century.

The larger point is... The Trayvon incident has nothing to do with Stand Your Ground. What Zimmerman did was NOT standing his ground. He went and engaged someone. Its completely different. The Anti Gun types are just trying to use this emotional outrage to cash in and gain some ground against some good laws.

[LovingKayla]

I agree with trailor mostly but according to the facts coming out, zimmerman was the one being attacked and then used self defense after being bashed in the head and then had this guy whopping his ass from the front. The 911 call was edited. Of course it was... why would I think differently. ugh.

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by trailor

Not true. Stand Your Ground has been on the books or in the case law of most states for decades if not a century.

The larger point is... The Trayvon incident has nothing to do with Stand Your Ground. What Zimmerman did was NOT standing his ground. He went and engaged someone. Its completely different. The Anti Gun types are just trying to use this emotional outrage to cash in and gain some ground against some good laws.

depends on your state,in Ks it was said if you shoot 'em on your porch,be sure to drag them in your house before you call the cops.Also shooting someone breaking into your garage was not going in your favor.

[CuteOldGuy]

There are so many slants and spins on this story, it's more like a carnival ride than anything else. I doubt we will ever get the real story. Even NBC edited the 911 call to make Zimmerman sound racist. Who knows what really happened.

[Sexyeccentric1]

No worry the FBI are already investigating and they suspect an arrest will be forth coming here soon. If that happens then there will be a trial and we will get more facts and then find out what actually happened.

By the way the voice analysts determined that was not Zimmerman's voice yelling for help on the 911 call. It will most likely be used in the court (albeit objected by defense) but I am sure the judge will allow the jury to determine the weight of it and the science behind it.

Another thing I find curious is there is no hospital report or doctors report on Zimmermans injuries that he claims. Don't you think they would have leaked that info out if it did in fact show he had injuries? I am sure they would to get the people to see that he was attacked as he claims. Yet we have nothing on that. I do find that odd.

[Missy Mariposa]

Originally Posted by LovingKayla

I agree with trailor mostly but according to the facts coming out, zimmerman was the one being attacked and then used self defense after being bashed in the head and then had this guy whopping his ass from the front. The 911 call was edited. Of course it was... why would I think differently. ugh.

While the 911 call was edited (of course) - the fact that Zimmerman had 0 injuries to support his claims of having the shit kicked out of him isn't edited. He has no bruises, his mug shot does NOT show a broken nose (or ANY signs of a recently broken one, i.e. facial bruising), no blood, no nothing.

Like a lot of things that go on in this country (cough 9/11, JFK, Osama Bin Laden, etc al) we will never know the actual truth. Half died with Martin and the rest will die with Zimmerman.

[dearhunter]

Where is Joe Horn when we need him.....heh

[Grifter]

There is an eye witness who says it was Zimmerman calling for help and to this point I dont think there has been any "on the record" evidence that disputes the eye witness account.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Missy Mariposa

While the 911 call was edited (of course) - the fact that Zimmerman had 0 injuries to support his claims of having the shit kicked out of him isn't edited. He has no bruises, his mug shot does NOT show a broken nose (or ANY signs of a recently broken one, i.e. facial bruising), no blood, no nothing. Missy, you are another victim of the MSM spin machine.

The 'mugshot' of Zimmerman the press is using is from 2005.

During the 18th Century the British Army wore 'redcoats' to obscure wounds and blood stains in order to keep morale high during battle. Please note, Zimmerman was wearing a RED and black jacket.

The medical 'analysis' performed by the MSM via a grainy surveillance image is complete BS.

And yes, NBC did edit the 911 call to make Zimmerman look like a racist.

And there are two witnesses accounts supporting Zimmerman's version of the fight (often ignored in MSM reports).

Like a lot of things that go on in this country (cough 9/11, JFK, Osama Bin Laden, etc al) we will never know the actual truth. Half died with Martin and the rest will die with Zimmerman. Apply Ockham's Razor.

.

[Sidewinder]

And there was a news story today that said that ABC News enhanced the really crappy video and there WERE head injuries visible in the enhanced video.

Video image enhancement is a well-understood science these days.

http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerm...opstories.html

[dearhunter]

Them racist witnesses are liars

[JD Barleycorn]

Yes, Mariposa the head wounds were real and the enhanced video shows them. Does that change your mind?

The original post is how did we get here. There are 21 states that have an actual "stand your ground" or "you home is your castle" law. The state legislaturer who sponsored the law in Florida said it was in response to a particular crime.
http://swampland.time.com/2012/03/28...-half-the-u-s/
Rep. Dennis Baxley wrote the bill into response of a elderly man who shot and killed a looter who had broken into his RV. After a hurricane, this man parked his RV in his front yard to protect his house and property. A criminal broke in and confronted the owner. The criminal was killed and the owner spent a couple of years in legal limbo. That was the point of the bill. It was passed with heavy bipartisan support so this is NOT a GOP bill.

[Missy Mariposa]

Okay, so he has a head wound. Good, that's step 1. Where's the broken nose and other blood? This is what I'm saying - he CLAIMS all of these injuries occurred. I couldn't care less if he can prove ONE of them. I want verification of his STORY, of his chain of events.

Your own link is even saying that.

There was no obvious sign of any injury to Zimmerman's head or face on the video until it was enhanced. But the enhanced video does not show any visible injury to Zimmerman's nose, nor any signs of blood on his shirt.

So where's the rest of that? He claims his nose was broken and his head was repeatedly slammed into the ground. That's not what the enhanced photo shows at all. It shows he's lying about at least that.

Yes there was a fight - but we still don't know who or what REALLY started it, and if Zimmerman is lying about the extent of his injuries should we trust anything else he says?

Two evidence experts consulted by the Sentinel found the voice heard in a 911 call placed by a woman in a home near where the shooting occurred was only a 48 percent match to Zimmerman's voice. One of the experts, Tom Owen, told the Sentinel to reach a positive match he would expect higher than 90 percent.
"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen told the paper.


Owen,the chair emeritus at the American Board of Record Evidence, was not able to determine if the voice was that of Martin, the Sentinel reports, because he did not have audio of the teen's voice to compare to the shouts for help in the 911 call.

We will probably never really know what happened - especially when the only 'eye witnesses' had a "I didn't see nothin I didn't hear nothin" approach and kept looking away

The witness reported hearing through a closed window voices from an area where residents typically walk their dogs. "I thought it was rather loud, but I had just shut my window because it had just started pouring out rain," the witness said. "And then I thought, 'Oh, my gosh, who's out there walking their dog in the rain?' "
But the witness did not immediately look outside to see what the commotion was about, according to the account. "I went and did something else, and then I heard the loud voices again," said the witness, who reported opening the window. "It definitely was a very loud, predominant voice," the witness said. "I couldn't hear the words but it was like, OK, this is not a regular conversation. This is someone aggressively, you know, yelling at someone."
The witness recounted seeing two men on the grass, one on top of the other. "And at that point, not looking out the window, I heard the yell for help, one yell for help, and then I heard another ... excruciating type of yell. It didn't almost sound like 'help.' It just sounded so painful. But I wasn't watching out the window during that. And then the next time I looked out the window, there's the same thing: two men on the grass, one on top of each other. I couldn't see a lot of movement. It was very dark, but I felt like they were scuffling. And then I heard the gunshots, which, to me, were more like pops than they were like a bang."
The witness recalled hearing more than one shot. "It definitely was more than one pop noise, so I don't know if it was an echo or anything else. But it definitely made more than one pop."
The witness said the shots were audible as one man was on top of the other. But the witness recalled not having been able to see clearly which man was on top because it was dark.