Enough is enough.

[Natalie Reign]

Continued from another thread, for the sake of keeping that thread on topic....

Originally Posted by Whispers

Once again darlin... I was simply trying to offer you a suggestion based on a lot of years experience that when planning these kind of things it is better to err on the side of caution and speak in generalities.......

If gals like you could ever learn when to simply ignore what you don't like to hear you wouldn't end up making such a fool of yourself with a long rambling post like this that served nothing of what you were trying to accomplish with your thread.

Unless what you wanted was a debate on the subject with me in which case you could hit one of the other threads...

Your suggestion and the general tone of your post came across as very condescending, and frankly, after some of your recent posts, I was quite exhausted with your general attitude toward providers and lost my temper a bit... thus the rambling. I apologize to other members who were actively interested in the Happy Hour locations and details.

But "if gals like [me] could ever learn when to simply ignore" what we don't like to hear? Really? I challenge you to find a pattern of me vocalizing my displeasure in Co-Ed or public forums. Go ahead. It hasn't happened very often in the 5 years I've been providing, and I can recall maybe 2-3 times it's happened since I first joined ASPD in 2008. To me, that doesn't echo your sentiment that I'm part of some emotionally-charged sector of providers that simply can't keep their mouths shut. However, your statement does echo the sentiment that we providers have heard so often from you, in various ways: "Lower your donations, shut up, and look pretty."

As far as "making of a fool" of myself, I suppose that's subjective. I've received many compliments on my post, and those that know me also know that it's rare for me to lose my temper or take such great offense that I resort to petty back-and-forth bickering.

I won't speak for others, but I've had enough. I've had enough of the negativity, the hostility, the attitude that providers are stupid or not worth their donations, the lack of support for the general community, and the lack of respect between members.

But I'm not leaving. I'm one of the many providers that advertise here, and we know those ads are the main reason hobbyists flock to this site. But it's also about communication, and developing relationships. And that's not happening in Austin anymore.

I know for a fact that many hobbyists refuse to speak up because they dislike the general attitude on the Austin board. Same for providers. Why are we allowing this to continue if so many of us are appalled by what it's doing to our community?

We providers have options... we can let it continue. We can speak up. Or we can boycott the board. But I, for one, like ECCIE. I like the board design and functionality. I like the fact that it's a prominent advertising site. I like that I've been able to cultivate so many lasting friendships that began here. And overall, I like the sense of camaraderie. But overall, I don't like what's happening in Austin Co-Ed, and I definitely dislike the manipulative ways certain members attempt to control the board atmosphere and play "armchair quarterback" with the moderators or advise the ladies to keep their mouths shut when things don't go their way.

I'm tired of this negativity ruining my attitude about a world I quite enjoy, and bringing my fellow providers and even hobbyists down. Even if we put certain people on "Ignore," we'll still hear from others when things get out of hand. It's incredibly frustrating to feel like there's nothing I can do to counteract the hostility. Yes, I lose my temper at times, as well, but I don't make it a habit of making personal attacks on others. Nor do I pop into Co-Ed complaining that the men are cheap, try to stay too long, or could stand to lose about 15 pounds. Even then, I don't complain when hobbyists talk openly about how we're charging more than we're "worth" (as if that's anyone else's determination to make but ours), ended the session on time (Oh no! A "clockwatcher!"), or comment publicly on our weight, appearance or age in a manner meant only to be a personal attack, and not as an adjunct to a legitimate review.

But seriously. Enough is enough. At what point did the Austin hobby begin denigrating into the sad mess that it is right now? What happened to the days of the "Austin Adorables" feeling respected and appreciated, and those same ladies going out of their way to show their affection and appreciation for the Austin hobbyists? Is there any way we can get this place back on track?

[missi hart]

thank you natalie, that was very well stated. just because there is a lot of negativity in the world doesn't mean that any of us has to give into it. thanks again for your sentiments, and here's to the high road...

[Sexy Roxanne]

Very well said and thought out, thank you.

[Whispers]

Originally Posted by Natalie Reign

.......But seriously. Enough is enough. At what point did the Austin hobby begin denigrating into the sad mess that it is right now? What happened to the days of the "Austin Adorables" feeling respected and appreciated, and those same ladies going out of their way to show their affection and appreciation for the Austin hobbyists? Is there any way we can get this place back on track?

Personally, I don't see it as being a "sad mess".

Then again I am a guy and have little interest in socializing, chatting or hanging out with the gals online. I have no problem finding ladies to hang out with.

I know many guys can't do that and like that aspect of the boards and have no problem with them.

But what I do see here is not bad.

I see more reviews, more interest in alternative sections and more camaraderie being shown by the men on the board than what I have seen in the Austin "community" in a number of years.

I've seen the attendance of the Luncheons grow to overshadow the attendance at the Socials. There is a REASON for that and if you do not identify that you won't have a lot of success in healing the divide.

I've seen the amount of information flowing from guy to guy increase and be posted faster and be more current than what we had in the past.

I see less hostility towards newbies and a more welcoming attitude as well as guidance for them.

I also see more guys ready to call "foul" when something truly smells.

I see more traveling providers coming to Austin and we are getting accurate and up to date information about those Providers.

I'm sorry but I don't see that as a "sad mess".

Perhaps the "Austin Adorables" don't see the same thing because for everything I am seeing to have occurred there can be no doubt that it occurred at the detriment of the "Austin Adorable s"

Once again, speaking only for myself, what I watched happen was a tremendous resentment build just under the surface towards the "Austin Adorable s" and their on board supporters that APPEARED at every opportunity to try to shut down all that I mentioned above.

It was a frequently stated opinion from many that Austin Adorable s were controlling the content of the board and manipulating the system by exerting influence over the Mods in place on ASPD.

When the switch occurred at ASPD there was a bit of an "uprising" of more than a handful of guys that wanted to see things change.

AS ASPD sailed off into the night and the migration here occurred I found, as did others, a more welcoming environment where information flowed, threads did not disappear, and guys did not get vacations for speaking their minds.

It took a few months for the mindset of old that could not adapt to be dealt with and eventually new leaders emerged.

More voices entered the mix and there was a long coming backlash against the "Austin Adorable s" and what they represented to some of us.

Even more voices began to come forward and the board tilted from one side to the other. For many they had never felt they could post their opinions and actually be heard.

You should know that the use of the term Austin Adorable has become something that is NOT always complimentary and often used as a derogatory referral by many.

IMO the term "Austin Adorable s" is something of the past that many equate to a small group of the same ladies that posted and dominated the group for a good while and guys were simply fed up and said No More.

As were girls that lent their voices at the time.

Some publicly.

Some behind the scenes.

I don't think there is any question that Most of the guys here, myself included, respect most of the ladies here.

Personally, I don't care for any lady here trying to suggest how I should spend my money or report my experiences. Ladies that choose to try to TELL me anything meet with extreme resistance and will get an earful.

I am a client and should be valued as such.

I don't let any other business tell me how I should spend my money.

Now before you go and say that I am not your client nor the client of any other gal you know you need to consider that I am not unique.

There are a lot of guys like me that feel the same way but not all of them are willing to speak up.

We see ladies. Locally or traveling and we share behind the scenes a lot.

There is a reason that as interest in the "Adorables" waned interest in other areas of this business grew and guys began to come together and just be guys.

Attendance at the GC Luncheons has more than tripled in size and when asked at one point if we wanted to open it up to more providers the overwhelming consensus was NO.

Ask around, I'm sure someone will tell you but I OFFERED to open it up and try it and was met with a resounding NO.

Nobody was interested in meeting the same women we had met time and time again.

As to "trying to get this place back on track" that kind of depends what track you want to get it on.

The days of ASPD and guys worshiping the local providers and Austin being a "Kinder Gentler Place" are over.

Too many consider that environment to have been conducive to higher rates here in Austin to what other cities were paying.

Now we have more visiting ladies of a higher caliber than we used to see, leaving with a considerable amount of Austin Money.

Some is done on the boards and some is done behind the scenes but what Austin guys could not find locally, they finally came together and found elsewhere.

Guys are grouping together to entice ladies to come here in order to experience new encounters.

We have much more informative information about alternatives than what we used to have.

For a long time this community and the "Austin Adorables" was simply the same old group of worn out offerings that everyone lost interest in. Sorry if that comes off as offensive but I've heard it out of dozens of guys over and over.

Personally I do not recall you as a member of that group and if your going to be a fresh face and stepping forth on your side of the fence to try to bring some unity between the male and female sides of this board I would suggest that as a group you be more welcoming of alternative opinions and not judge hobbyists that choose to spend their money on the Streets or in the Clubs. Far more of those guys today are a part of the same group that will spend their money on Indies..

You need to be more welcoming to the Agencies and the girls they represent. Not standoffish or condescending to them due to what you perceive as a weakness.

Times are tough economically at the moment for everyone and you need to take that into consideration.

Some girls demean a girl in the Strip Club that takes $100 from a guy for what she does while at the same time wondering why that $100 is not being spent on them. But that girl USUALLY seperates a guy from a lot more than the $100 and you should take notice of that as well.

If you are going to "rebuild" this "community" I would suggest you do so in the same manner that has been successful in the past.

Rebuild it and be welcoming of Indies, Agency Girls, Strippers and any others that might want to be a part of it as well as the clients they have.

If you choose to go the "Indy Route and the Clients we approve of" I would bet money against your success.

You will never get this back to what you had.

But.

In my opinion you might be able to have something better.

But you need to think outside the box and be open.

[Natalie Reign]

Originally Posted by Whispers

I've seen the attendance of the Luncheons grow to overshadow the attendance at the Socials. There is a REASON for that and if you do not identify that you won't have a lot of success in healing the divide.

I'm not looking to "heal" the divide between the hobby and the strip club community. I think they are two distinct but separate aspects of the adult entertainment industry, and I don't view their division as a problem to be fixed.

I've seen the amount of information flowing from guy to guy increase and be posted faster and be more current than what we had in the past.

Good. That's what this community is for - to exchange information.

I see less hostility towards newbies and a more welcoming attitude as well as guidance for them.

I also see more guys ready to call "foul" when something truly smells.

From what I've seen, seasoned providers are exceptionally helpful toward new girls, and while not all of us see newbies, I think we're generally helpful when contacted by a newbie for an appointment, whether than means referring him to a newbie-friendly provider or suggesting he start by joining P411. I've seen some of your "guidance" for new hobbyists that included advice on how to see providers without ever giving screening info, or "getting around" a provider's required screening. While I certainly don't see how you assisting other hobbyists in sliding by the safety measures we have in place for ourselves is "helpful" for the community as a whole, I suppose you view it as "guidance" in your own way.

Perhaps the "Austin Adorables" don't see the same thing because for everything I am seeing to have occurred there can be no doubt that it occurred at the detriment of the "Austin Adorable s"

Once again, speaking only for myself, what I watched happen was a tremendous resentment build just under the surface towards the "Austin Adorable s" and their on board supporters that APPEARED at every opportunity to try to shut down all that I mentioned above.

Now, let's not speak in absolutes, nor twist things around. All of the things you mentioned above were painted in a positive light. In some instances, the changes you mentioned are positive. But in many ways, they're not. I don't recall anyone attempting to control the flow of information here, or anyone asking that you not be welcoming to new members, or anyone attempting to deter attendance at your luncheons. It seems that you're creating an invisible enemy against whom you can rally your compatriots, where I'm asking specifically for solutions to the problem. But that's nothing new.

It was a frequently stated opinion from many that Austin Adorable s were controlling the content of the board and manipulating the system by exerting influence over the Mods in place on ASPD.

I was there, too, and I from what I recall, you did far more than watch; you instigated and stirred up that resentment, much of which I believed was unfounded. Do you really think the ladies had that much power over the mods? I think you're giving too much credit to the power of the V.

When the switch occurred at ASPD there was a bit of an "uprising" of more than a handful of guys that wanted to see things change.

AS ASPD sailed off into the night and the migration here occurred I found, as did others, a more welcoming environment where information flowed, threads did not disappear, and guys did not get vacations for speaking their minds.

It took a few months for the mindset of old that could not adapt to be dealt with and eventually new leaders emerged.

More voices entered the mix and there was a long coming backlash against the "Austin Adorable s" and what they represented to some of us.

So let me get this straight... the previous mods from ECCIE and ASPD were somehow being controlled by the Austin Adorables, so you were angry at the mods, and eventually pushed them out. Then, with the mods out of the way, you decided to shift your anger towards the women that you perceived to be controlling the mods? This is quite the conspiracy theory you have going on in your mind. What exactly do the Austin Adorables represent to you? If they were, indeed, controlling the board and the mods, whose fault is it? The mods? The Adorables? The board owners? I'm curious as to what instances of "control" by the ladies led to the "long coming backlash."

Even more voices began to come forward and the board tilted from one side to the other. For many they had never felt they could post their opinions and actually be heard.

Are you under the impression that people feel they can post their opinions and actually be heard now?

You should know that the use of the term Austin Adorable has become something that is NOT always complimentary and often used as a derogatory referral by many.

IMO the term "Austin Adorable s" is something of the past that many equate to a small group of the same ladies that posted and dominated the group for a good while and guys were simply fed up and said No More.

You should know that I've never seen the term Austin Adorables used in anything but a positive light. Until someone without a one-sided agenda advises me against using it, I'll stick with what I know. Additionally, do you realize that you noted people were fed up with certain people posting and dominating the group? Is there a chance that the same thing could be happening now, but on the hobbyist side? And that the ladies, and many hobbyists, from what I'm hearing, are also fed up, and are saying No More?

I don't think there is any question that Most of the guys here, myself included, respect most of the ladies here.

You may respect the ladies here a great deal. But as this is an Internet forum, all I know for certain is what I see and interpret, and the interpretations I hear from others. The general consensus is that you have a habit of being condescending, seem to think providers in general aren't worth your time or respect, and that you have no problems hurling nasty personal attacks or instigating arguments. All of those assumptions may be 100% incorrect, but as I said, this is an Internet forum, and the manner in which you convey your personality through your posts is all we have to base our opinions on. If our assumptions are incorrect, I invite you to adjust the way you present yourself so that we can see the real Whispers.

Personally, I don't care for any lady here trying to suggest how I should spend my money or report my experiences. Ladies that choose to try to TELL me anything meet with extreme resistance and will get an earful.

Again... I'm looking for instances where such a thing has happened and I don't see any. I do, however, see many instances where you give strong opinions on how we ladies should price ourselves, and how we should make our money. Should that be as offensive to us in the same way that you would be offended if we told you how to spend your money? I'm simply attempting to figure out where the balance between a provider-friendly and a hobbyist-friendly board lies. Right now, it seems to be skewed to the hobbyist side.

I am a client and should be valued as such.

I don't let any other business tell me how I should spend my money.

Now before you go and say that I am not your client nor the client of any other gal you know you need to consider that I am not unique.

Yes, you are someone's client. Not mine. And I don't venture to tell you how to spend your money. But I can tell you that I value each and every one of my clients, and that my regular clients are afforded many opportunities to see how much I appreciate them. Being that you're not actually my client, what exactly should I be doing to show you that I value you as such?

There are a lot of guys like me that feel the same way but not all of them are willing to speak up.

We see ladies. Locally or traveling and we share behind the scenes a lot.

There is a reason that as interest in the "Adorables" waned interest in other areas of this business grew and guys began to come together and just be guys.

Attendance at the GC Luncheons has more than tripled in size and when asked at one point if we wanted to open it up to more providers the overwhelming consensus was NO.

Ask around, I'm sure someone will tell you but I OFFERED to open it up and try it and was met with a resounding NO.

Nobody was interested in meeting the same women we had met time and time again.

Okay... but again, we're discussing the provider/hobbyist relationship. Not the stripper/customer relationship, nor the hobbyist/SW relationship, because honestly, neither strippers nor SW have a visible presence on this board, and I don't feel we should speak for them. If there are members of that sector here, I invite them to speak on their own behalf, and will openly support them doing so.

I'm not interested in the GC luncheons. They aren't conducive to the type of relationship I want to develop with my clients. I'm not saying the luncheons are bad, they just aren't my style. And if we're being completely honest, your luncheons aren't meant to be social events focused on providers and hobbyists. They're meant to be "boys club" get-togethers where you can associate with strippers and perhaps have some fun with a few providers. So I fail to see why the resounding "no" in response to whether you should open it up to more providers is relevant. If I were a gent in attendance, I wouldn't want more providers there either. If I wanted to see the "same faces" I would schedule a session with my favorite provider or attend a board social.

As to "trying to get this place back on track" that kind of depends what track you want to get it on.

The days of ASPD and guys worshiping the local providers and Austin being a "Kinder Gentler Place" are over.

Too many consider that environment to have been conducive to higher rates here in Austin to what other cities were paying.

It's quite obvious the days of ASPD are over. I'm not trying to bring them back. But I do think that if we hope to have a long-standing, sustained hobby community, we need to focus on compromise and balancing the scales between hobbyists and providers. If the hobbyists didn't like the provider-dominated board, then they can easily understand why we don't appreciate a hobbyist-dominated board.

I find it somewhat amusing and somewhat sad that you feel being "kind and gentle" toward providers is somehow akin to men "worshipping" them or that being nice to the ladies automatically means higher prices. Quite the opposite; I raised my rates primarily because the hobbyists I was attracting at a lower rate generally weren't very nice. There are some definite exceptions, and I won't venture so far as to say lower prices always means lower caliber clients, because that's simply not true. But the amount of time wasters, clients with bad reference reports, rude clients, aggressive clients, inappropriate behavior, poor hygiene and short-changers drastically increased every time I ran a special or lowered my rates in response to perceived economic demand.

As far as a "kinder and gentler" environment being conducive to prices higher than what you're seeing in other cities, what cities are you referring to? I am consistently booked solid at 300/hr in every city I travel to outside Austin, and the price points I see for similar providers, both local and touring, ranges from 250-350 or even 400/hr consistently in each of those places. I do careful market research before touring, as do most ladies, so be careful in making generalizations, especially in comparing us to markets like Dallas where new, inexperienced ladies are saturating the market.

Now we have more visiting ladies of a higher caliber than we used to see, leaving with a considerable amount of Austin Money.

In what ways are the visiting ladies "of a higher caliber" than what you used to see? Have you considered the fact that a visiting lady has a limited amount of time to see clients, so the demand for her time is automatically increased based on the urgency factor alone? Or that a visiting provider is more likely to "push through" back-to-back appointments, and capitalize on that urgent demand, so that demand combined with her lower rates allows her to make what an Austin local might earn in a week or more? It usually works that way for touring ladies, regardless of what city they travel to, if they plan their trip well and have that "fresh face" advantage.

Some is done on the boards and some is done behind the scenes but what Austin guys could not find locally, they finally came together and found elsewhere.

Guys are grouping together to entice ladies to come here in order to experience new encounters.

We have much more informative information about alternatives than what we used to have.

For a long time this community and the "Austin Adorables" was simply the same old group of worn out offerings that everyone lost interest in. Sorry if that comes off as offensive but I've heard it out of dozens of guys over and over.

"Worn out offerings that everyone lost interest in." Here again, it's painfully obvious that you view the providers here only as a product, and not actual people. Therein may lie the root of the problem.

Personally I do not recall you as a member of that group and if your going to be a fresh face and stepping forth on your side of the fence to try to bring some unity between the male and female sides of this board I would suggest that as a group you be more welcoming of alternative opinions and not judge hobbyists that choose to spend their money on the Streets or in the Clubs. Far more of those guys today are a part of the same group that will spend their money on Indies..
You need to be more welcoming to the Agencies and the girls they represent. Not standoffish or condescending to them due to what you perceive as a weakness.

Personally I do not recall the Austin Adorables as having specific members, but it appeared to me to be more of a generalized term for the seasoned local providers in Austin, and the term appeared to have a certain degree of affection and respect attached to it. Perhaps I'm wrong, or perhaps the discontent regarding the Adorables was not brought to the public's attention. In any case...

I don't have a problem with alternative opinions. And I certainly don't judge anyone for frequenting strip clubs (I started out as a dancer, and enjoy going to clubs in my personal life), nor do I begrudge a hobbyist for enjoying the thrill of the chase with SW. However, I choose not to see hobbyists that are known for frequenting SW simply because a perceived increase in health risks on my side. My fears may be unfounded, or may be right-on. The fact is that I make business decisions based on my perception of costs and benefits associated with the hobby, and while I am happy to socialize or communicate with hobbyists who prefer strip clubs or SW, the reality is that we're in two separate sectors of the hobby community, and I will continue to focus my actual business on clients on similar wavelengths.

Regarding being friendly and welcoming to agencies and the girls they represent... where are you getting the idea that we aren't? I know of some serious issues with certain Austin agencies that relate to agency owner behavior towards girls, but that in no way conveys a "standoffish" attitude towards agencies in general, but more of a protective attitude towards the girls we see victimized by pimps disguising themselves as agency owners. For agencies that do not mistreat their ladies and don't create multiple handles and post fake reviews about their girls, I see no resistance whatsoever from the ladies. (Shouldn't the hobbyists be the ones angry about fake reviews?) I only know of one agency girl who has an ECCIE handle and posts here, and I know that several of us have been engaged in positive conversation with her lately.

Times are tough economically at the moment for everyone and you need to take that into consideration.

Some girls demean a girl in the Strip Club that takes $100 from a guy for what she does while at the same time wondering why that $100 is not being spent on them. But that girl USUALLY seperates a guy from a lot more than the $100 and you should take notice of that as well.

I'm not demeaning strip club girls, and I haven't seen anyone else do so either. Please stop using irrelevant hypotheticals in your argument.

If you are going to "rebuild" this "community" I would suggest you do so in the same manner that has been successful in the past.

Rebuild it and be welcoming of Indies, Agency Girls, Strippers and any others that might want to be a part of it as well as the clients they have.

Let's be clear; I'm not under any illusions that I can "rebuild" this community. I'm asking for everyone to consider doing their part to make the community a more positive, encouraging, supportive place. We're all here for different reasons, but we all face a lot of the same struggles, all harbor some of the same frustrations, and all share a dirty little secret. That should count for something. Indies and agencies are more than welcome here. I'm not sure of the board policy on verifying strippers, but I know that certain ladies focus their business on private dancing, and those ladies are just as much a part of the provider community as any other. I'm still confused as to where you are getting the idea that people aren't being "welcomed" here. Perhaps you can direct me to some examples.

If you choose to go the "Indy Route and the Clients we approve of" I would bet money against your success.

You will never get this back to what you had.

I don't even know what that means.

But.

In my opinion you might be able to have something better.

But you need to think outside the box and be open.

I'd love to have something better than what we see right now. But better in whose eyes?

I started a thread to facilitate communication between hobbyists and providers regarding how we could begin to come together as a community again, knowing that I could cause some loss to my personal business, and knowing that I would be compelled to take part in a days-long discussion dragging out exactly why I feel the way I do and why you feel the way you do. I did that because I am thinking outside the box, and I am being open. I think you're just failing to realize that your current attempts to control the board are no different than the Adorables supposed attempts to control the board. If you didn't like the behavior you perceived then, why are you perpetuating it now?

[Whispers]

Originally Posted by Natalie Reign

I'm not looking to "heal" the divide between the hobby and the strip club community. I think they are two distinct but separate aspects of the adult entertainment industry, and I don't view their division as a problem to be fixed.

They are much more closely intertwined than you seem to want to admit and many of the guys are part of both groups. They support Indies, Agency Girls and Strippers. If you fail to acknowledge that you will continue to maintain a rift....

I've seen some of your "guidance" for new hobbyists that included advice on how to see providers without ever giving screening info, or "getting around" a provider's required screening. While I certainly don't see how you assisting other hobbyists in sliding by the safety measures we have in place for ourselves is "helpful" for the community as a whole, I suppose you view it as "guidance" in your own way.


Yes I do. As a member once outed to my SO as a result of my Personal Information being out there I know the risks first hand. I do not believe in screening and when asked will provide suggestions to guys on how to build references without ever being subjected to screening.



Now, let's not speak in absolutes, nor twist things around. All of the things you mentioned above were painted in a positive light. In some instances, the changes you mentioned are positive. But in many ways, they're not. I don't recall anyone attempting to control the flow of information here, or anyone asking that you not be welcoming to new members, or anyone attempting to deter attendance at your luncheons.

No where did I suggest that anyone deterred attendance at the luncheons. But in fact, we were not allowed to post or promote them on ASPD which came shortly after a backlash at my bringing strippers to a Social where the girl with me was of greater interest than many of the ladies at the Social. After deeming that the Luncheons lacked a screening element that actually did exist I found it ironic that the method used for Socials backfired over in Houston.

It seems that you're creating an invisible enemy against whom you can rally your compatriots, where I'm asking specifically for solutions to the problem. But that's nothing new.

My post was meant to be informative and I wrote it almost totally from my point of view based on my experience. It was not a rallying call to the troops. I have Speed Dial and a 186 member Email list for that.


I was there, too, and I from what I recall, you did far more than watch; you instigated and stirred up that resentment, much of which I believed was unfounded. Do you really think the ladies had that much power over the mods? I think you're giving too much credit to the power of the V.

No I don't I've watched too many guys I once respected over the years sell their souls and give up their views for the V.


So let me get this straight... the previous mods from ECCIE and ASPD were somehow being controlled by the Austin Adorables, so you were angry at the mods, and eventually pushed them out.

Yes. That is my belief and No I did not push them out. A new community formed and their views were no longer welcomed by the majority of the members. Over a period of time they found that this was not for them nd took their leave and were subsequently replaced by a group that understood.

If I can point to one major Difference that led to the change it was the fact that on ECCIE Mods were not allowed to make threads disappear and very few threads go locked. So more and more guys felt it was not a waste of their time to express their opinions.


Then, with the mods out of the way, you decided to shift your anger towards the women that you perceived to be controlling the mods?

I have no anger against anyone. Out of curiosity why are you taking and twisting what I had to say? You give me far too much credit darlin. I am just one voice.

This is quite the conspiracy theory you have going on in your mind. What exactly do the Austin Adorables represent to you? If they were, indeed, controlling the board and the mods, whose fault is it? The mods?

Yes.... I can agree that the fault lay in the Mods.

Are you under the impression that people feel they can post their opinions and actually be heard now?

Yes I am. But if they want those opinions to matter they need to be able to present them and debate them in a manner that is not emotional or personal in nature.

With a few minor missteps you are doing a pretty good job....


You should know that I've never seen the term Austin Adorables used in anything but a positive light.

You are not privy to other areas or what goes on amongst us though are you?

Until someone without a one-sided agenda advises me against using it, I'll stick with what I know. Additionally, do you realize that you noted people were fed up with certain people posting and dominating the group? Is there a chance that the same thing could be happening now, but on the hobbyist side? And that the ladies, and many hobbyists, from what I'm hearing, are also fed up, and are saying No More?

I guess we will see. But I think we already did and the number of voices that will pick up on any new "molding efforts" will most likely be far greater than the last time around.

You may respect the ladies here a great deal. But as this is an Internet forum, all I know for certain is what I see and interpret, and the interpretations I hear from others. The general consensus is that you have a habit of being condescending, seem to think providers in general aren't worth your time or respect, and that you have no problems hurling nasty personal attacks or instigating arguments.

I get nasty and personal AFTER being attacked myself darlin... Never First.... Never without cause.....

All of those assumptions may be 100% incorrect, but as I said, this is an Internet forum, and the manner in which you convey your personality through your posts is all we have to base our opinions on. If our assumptions are incorrect, I invite you to adjust the way you present yourself so that we can see the real Whispers.

The personna of "Whispers" was actually formed and supported by the founder of ASPD, the late Amber, and over the years I have remained consistent in my views and my attitude. To be anything less would cost me credibility with those whose opinions I value.

Again... I'm looking for instances where such a thing has happened and I don't see any.

Well I see it in every ad disguised as a thread, every discussion of tips and gifts..... every time there is dissent towards a reviewer for his opinion.... every discussion of NCNS.... Every discussion of screening......I don't think I am the only one.

I do, however, see many instances where you give strong opinions on how we ladies should price ourselves, and how we should make our money.
Should that be as offensive to us in the same way that you would be offended if we told you how to spend your money?

No... In those instances you are getting feedback from your customer base and no business that took that approach will be successful. You would only hurt yourself.

I'm simply attempting to figure out where the balance between a provider-friendly and a hobbyist-friendly board lies. Right now, it seems to be skewed to the hobbyist side.

We can agree on that.

Yes, you are someone's client. Not mine. And I don't venture to tell you how to spend your money. But I can tell you that I value each and every one of my clients, and that my regular clients are afforded many opportunities to see how much I appreciate them. Being that you're not actually my client, what exactly should I be doing to show you that I value you as such?

I think there are other threads where feedback from other guys would be more suited to answering that.


There are a lot of guys like me that feel the same way but not all of them are willing to speak up.

Okay... but again, we're discussing the provider/hobbyist relationship. Not the stripper/customer relationship, nor the hobbyist/SW relationship, because honestly, neither strippers nor SW have a visible presence on this board, and I don't feel we should speak for them. If there are members of that sector here, I invite them to speak on their own behalf, and will openly support them doing so.

But you are wrong in that assessment because if you do not address that segment you are missing many that are actually a part of your potential client base. Excluding guys from those segments only hurts you.


It's quite obvious the days of ASPD are over. I'm not trying to bring them back. But I do think that if we hope to have a long-standing, sustained hobby community, we need to focus on compromise and balancing the scales between hobbyists and providers. If the hobbyists didn't like the provider-dominated board, then they can easily understand why we don't appreciate a hobbyist-dominated board.

You don't have to look far to see other areas that are "Hobbyist Dominated" but still have a pretty good sense of community.....

I find it somewhat amusing and somewhat sad that you feel being "kind and gentle" toward providers is somehow akin to men "worshipping" them or that being nice to the ladies automatically means higher prices.
Quite the opposite; I raised my rates primarily because the hobbyists I was attracting at a lower rate generally weren't very nice. There are some definite exceptions, and I won't venture so far as to say lower prices always means lower caliber clients, because that's simply not true. But the amount of time wasters, clients with bad reference reports, rude clients, aggressive clients, inappropriate behavior, poor hygiene and short-changers drastically increased every time I ran a special or lowered my rates in response to perceived economic demand.

Now we have more visiting ladies of a higher caliber than we used to see, leaving with a considerable amount of Austin Money.

In what ways are the visiting ladies "of a higher caliber" than what you used to see?

Younger, better looking, more open menus and more accomadating than those that used to tour austin.



"Worn out offerings that everyone lost interest in." Here again, it's painfully obvious that you view the providers here only as a product, and not actual people. Therein may lie the root of the problem.

When I am with a lady, in person, out on the town or BCD I see her and treat her as a Lady. On a Review oriented Board I see you as a business and respond as a client. Yes. Here. I see and discuss the product.

I don't have a problem with alternative opinions. And I certainly don't judge anyone for frequenting strip clubs (I started out as a dancer, and enjoy going to clubs in my personal life), nor do I begrudge a hobbyist for enjoying the thrill of the chase with SW. However, I choose not to see hobbyists that are known for frequenting SW simply because a perceived increase in health risks on my side. My fears may be unfounded, or may be right-on.

The key word there is "perceived". Far too many of your sister Indies and Agency girls engage in activities that present you with the same risks.


The fact is that I make business decisions based on my perception of costs and benefits associated with the hobby, and while I am happy to socialize or communicate with hobbyists who prefer strip clubs or SW, the reality is that we're in two separate sectors of the hobby community, and I will continue to focus my actual business on clients on similar wavelengths.

Then you will never avail yourself of the opportunities out there and if any of the other information being presented is true many of your associates will not make ends meet because they fail to see the clients that cross those lines with money to spend.


Regarding being friendly and welcoming to agencies and the girls they represent... where are you getting the idea that we aren't?

I guess we went to different socials here in Austin.. In the few where Agency Gals were welcome they always seemed to be shoved off to the side and shunned.... Indies on one side of the room... Others over there..... We had great times in Houston where everyone mixed and mingled and there were no cliques. I never saw that here...


I started a thread to facilitate communication between hobbyists and providers regarding how we could begin to come together as a community again, knowing that I could cause some loss to my personal business, and knowing that I would be compelled to take part in a days-long discussion dragging out exactly why I feel the way I do and why you feel the way you do. I did that because I am thinking outside the box, and I am being open. I think you're just failing to realize that your current attempts to control the board are no different than the Adorables supposed attempts to control the board. If you didn't like the behavior you perceived then, why are you perpetuating it now?

I'm posting no differently today than last month or most of my posting history....

You are much better at conveying your thoughts and ideas than many of those you share interests with.

Others should look at how you say what you do and take not and adapt similar characteristics.

[Dagny D.E.W.]

whew! wow. I have been in this community for a long time. I don't know if I was an "Austin Adorable" or if that was a group of ladies that I was outside of but I D.E.W. know that there is a big change in how the ladies are treated here in Austin.

I put a couple of the guys on Ignore and can only read what they say if quoted like Natalie did in #5. Makes life better.

I haven't seen the guys treating ladies better here than at ASPD. I wasn't aware that the ladies controlled things over there either.

I read some here but mostly stay out of it. If I want to read hateful stuff I just watch politics, it is less hateful than what goes on here.

[Guest092810]

Originally Posted by Natalie Reign
.......But seriously. Enough is enough. At what point did the Austin hobby begin denigrating into the sad mess that it is right now? What happened to the days of the "Austin Adorables" feeling respected and appreciated, and those same ladies going out of their way to show their affection and appreciation for the Austin hobbyists? Is there any way we can get this place back on track?

It's only sad on these inane threads.

A lot of us are still smiling and enjoying ourselves, hobbyists and providers alike. We just aren't posting in these threads.

You might be surprised to find out how many of us are PMing one another mutually, and laughing at all of this nonsense.

Hey. Let's all calm down and get back to why we are here.

Just a thought...

[allofamber]

Natalie..quick question.."do you see women?"..i might need to make a special trip to Austin for an appointment....I am so crushing on you now!!!!!

Oh yea baby-girl..remember the ignore button is your friend...eccie's gets a lot better when you block all the negative people out....some people are just miserable and enjoy being like that..no need to get yourself upset..just IGNORE!!!

[Sensia]

Quote: Whispers
"Yes I do. As a member once outed to my SO as a result of my Personal Information being out there I know the risks first hand. I do not believe in screening and when asked will provide suggestions to guys on how to build references without ever being subjected to screening."

I am just curious how did you get outed? Was it a male member, or a lady? Was it directly related to information given through screening? It seems that is what you are implying.

Most of the people I have ever known that were outed or found out in the hobby generally it was the hobbyist who had stored information on their phone or computer that the significant other found out about.

So that is why I am interested in knowing how you were outed.

[Sensual Sophia]

Originally Posted by allofamber

Natalie..quick question.."do you see women?"..i might need to make a special trip to Austin for an appointment....I am so crushing on you now!!!!!

Oh yea baby-girl..remember the ignore button is your friend...eccie's gets a lot better when you block all the negative people out....some people are just miserable and enjoy being like that..no need to get yourself upset..just IGNORE!!!

Yes she does and I can vouch for her talents in the women-pleasing department.

I have yet to put anyone on ignore because I felt like it made sense to "know your enemy" but sometimes I consider changing my mind about that one...

[missi hart]

Originally Posted by Sensual Sophia

I have yet to put anyone on ignore because I felt like it made sense to "know your enemy" but sometimes I consider changing my mind about that one...

i have had that same mindset. however, i do have a couple of guys that are asscociated with each other on ignore as, in my opinion, they not only never have anything positive to contribute, but they more times than not are to the point of disgusting and destructive. i have no need to see that.

[allofamber]

Originally Posted by Sensual Sophia

Yes she does and I can vouch for her talents in the women-pleasing department. ...

That's good news...Nat..sent you a message to your google group...please add me..let me know when to head to Austin for your "party" and then after the party we can have some fun......

hugs..Amber

[LadiesFan]

Originally Posted by allofamber

Natalie..quick question.."do you see women?"..i might need to make a special trip to Austin for an appointment....I am so crushing on you now!!!!!

That is a FANTASTIC idea... Since many of the Austin gents are making less money due to the poor economy, and can't hobby as much as we are used to.... and SOME of the local ladies are hurting for money, but refuse to lower their rates.... Allofamber, and other ladies who work in other markets and are flush with cash should come to Austin and pay to hobby with the local ladies. Man, that is BRILLIANT!!!!!!

Thanks Allofamber... PROBLEM SOLVED !

LF

[Sensual Sophia]

Originally Posted by LadiesFan

That is a FANTASTIC idea... Since many of the Austin gents are making less money due to the poor economy, and can't hobby as much as we are used to.... and SOME of the local ladies are hurting for money, but refuse to lower their rates.... Allofamber, and other ladies who work in other markets and are flush with cash should come to Austin and pay to hobby with the local ladies. Man, that is BRILLIANT!!!!!!

Thanks Allofamber... PROBLEM SOLVED !

LF

HAHAHAHAHA! That is the first time I've LOLed in quite some time. Thanks LadiesFan.