London and Paris

[Guest053011]

I have a trip planned in Spring to London and Paris. I'd love to take any suggestions on interesting things to do and see, and places to eat (accommodations are already decided).

I'd like to avoid the typical tourist spots.

[TexTushHog]

For an overview, including my thoughts, on London, see this recent thread from the Dallas portion of the board.

Paris? Too many option to even begin to scratch the surface in four days. My question back to you would be, what are your interests? While you say you want to "avoid the typical tourist spots," some are cultural gems that are unsurpassed, such as Notre Dame (unless you want to go to Chartres, of course; or the Louvre.

But at a minimum, I'd say you'd want to spend part of a day at Notre Dame.

Hit the Louvre for anywhere from a few hours to half a day, depending own how much art interests you. Along with the Hermitage in St. Petersburg, The Vatican Museum, and the Prado, it's one of the great museums of the world. And don't rush around like a chicken with your head cut off. Pick one section of the collection to concentrate on.

Musee d'Orsay is a must stop for those who love Impressionism. If you don't have a lot of time, just head strait to the top floor. It is an embarrassment of riches. If you have more time, take in the overall progression of pre-impressionists and the evolution of the genre, eat lunch at the cafe in the museum, and then heat to the top floor. There you will find what I think is the most amazing collection of paintings in the world in one place. Starry Night, Church at Auver, Dr. Gachet by Van Gogh. Manet's Dejunier Sur l'herbs. Reniors Bal du Moulin de la Galette, scads of Gaugins, etc.

If you are a fan of Impressionism, you might also like the Musee Marmottan. 2 Ave. Louis Boilly. The largest collection of Claude Monet in the world including an obscene number of his water lillies. Also has lots of Berthe Morisot, if you're into her, as I am.

Eat lunch outside in the Place des Vosges at Ma Bourgogne. A great piece of architecture, and a good place to take it all in from. Be sure and sample their excellent selection of cru Beaujolais by the pichet or demi pichet. The Picasso Museum is nearby.

Lots of great restaurant choice, too. If you're into Rodin, there is a really nice, out of the way Musee Rodin that draws way too little attention.

But seriously, tell me what you are interested it and I"ll have lots of advice, in all likelihood. Especially if it's history or art.

[WTF]

I agree with TTH, there is so much to do in that city that you would have to move there for a couple of years to experience it all. But for only four days I would do as he suggest and also take the train to the Palace of Versailles.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

If you are a fan of Impressionism, you might also like the Musee Marmottan. 2 Ave. Louis Boilly. The largest collection of Claude Monet in the world including an obscene number of his water lillies.

The Musée de l'Orangerie des Tuileries also has a collection of Monet's water lilies arranged in two connected oval shaped rooms where you can sit in the center and feel like you are in his garden. It is located on the right front edge of the Tuilerie gardens in front of the Louvre, just off Place de la Concorde. The access is limited so the crowds are not bad. You can get a ticket from your hotel concierge that will get you to the front of the line.

[Mazomaniac]

When in Paris walk around the block from Notre Dame and go inside the gothic church known as La Sainte-Chapelle. The tourists just don't hang here. That's a crime because, IMHO, it's one of the most impressive works of art in the history of man. I've taken about ten people to see it who didn't even know it existed. All ten ended up with weak knees at the sight of it. It's a life-time don't miss.

If you want to scope for celebrities and don't mind dropping a little change then stop in for cocktails at the Hotel George V. You're going to find a few tourists here, but at least they're going to be better-off, more educated tourists who won't be sitting around dipping their croque-monsieur in ketchup. What you'll also find is one of the coolest bars on the planet and, on occasion, the odd movie star or head of state who drops in for a drink before dinner. I've personally spied Kylie Minogue there, although the four extremely large bodyguards put me off from asking her for a date. Also saw Princess Mary of Denmark there wearing what was easily the most expensive maternity dress in the history of man.

If you're in London and you want to do the anti-tourist thing, then the only way to go is FOOTBALL.

Now I know this seems like a testosterone-laden guy thing, and it is. But that's the point. What happens on the field doesn't matter. What goes on in the stands is the real show.

Thousands of human males chanting and singing in unison. Multitudes lifted to heaven and dashed to hell with each goal scored. Courtesies discarded. Rules ignored. All manner of chaos allowed with the sole unwritten command that women and children are not to be harmed.

It's like a living anthropology museum. You get to see exactly how men behaved when we still lived in caves and relied on herd behavior for survival. Not that you don't see a lot of that in your daily life anyway, but here to get to see it 30,000 guys at a time!

But if you do it, do it right. Grab the tube through the seedy east end to the Boleyn Ground and take in a match of West Ham United. Go early and walk from the tube station to the ground through a high street area filled with mom-and-pop stores selling authentic salwar kameez and ao dai. Stop in at at a hole-in-wall restaurant for some awesome authentic curry and then head into the stadium through revolving steel riot gates to watch thousands of males being male. Afterward head back to the tube with thousands of fans either partying and carrying on in the streets (if it's a West Ham win) or trashing everything they see (if it's not).

I love it. It's about as far outside my normal comfort zone as I can get without needing a firearm. For all the ballyhoo in the press it's actually a fairly safe thing to do. It just feels deliciously dangerous. The police keep a tight fist on things that cross the line although there's always the random a-hole who started drinking too early in the day. That said, I've only seen one guy who actually got hurt and that's because the idiot showed up in another team's colors.

YMMV, but don't go alone. Maybe you can hook up with Camille for a match!

Cheers,
Mazo.

[Laurentius]

Just ideas that sort of reflect my own biases, ymmv.

London:
> Central Criminal Court. You can watch trials live from the gallery. See the similarities and differences compared to our approach over here.

> The London Dungeon. I have some kid inside me and got a huge kick out of this.

> Southwark Cathedral. I love gothic architecture.

> Chelsea Physic Garden. This was used for herbs for medicine. It'll give you a peek not just at botany but the development of medicine. Very cool.

Paris:
> Not to be morbid, but the cemetaries are cool. Check out Cimetiere du Pere Lachaise -- there are a lot of interesting stories there. Don't rub Victor Noir's crotch prior to an appointment with a client though.

> Fontain Cuvier (sp?) it is a seriously cool sculpture adjacent to the Jardin des Plantes. Speaking of which ...

> French methods of intensive agriculture are interesting; and the food they grow there is superb. Visit a food market and sample some of the delectable spring greens, many of which are unidentifiable to Americans used to our grocery stores. In fact, sample practically anything that is in season. French fruits and veggies are largely grown for taste rather than easy harvest or shipping stability, so they are superb.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Mazomaniac

When in Paris walk around the block from Notre Dame ...

If you want to scope for celebrities and don't mind dropping a little change then stop in for cocktails at the Hotel George V. .

Agreed, that is one nice bar with martini's to match.

http://www.fourseasons.com/paris/dining/le_bar/

Speaking of ND, my date and I had a great night out mixing with the street dancers and painters off the front side of Notre Dame.

[Mazomaniac]

Originally Posted by WTF

http://www.fourseasons.com/paris/dining/le_bar/

Oh wow is that pic creepy.

Go to the link and click on the "full screen" button to check out the demon bartender. All you need is Jack Nicholson and you'd have a Stanley Kubrick movie!

redrum . . . redrum . . . redrum . . . .

LOL

Cheers,
Mazo.

[Sisyphus]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

I have a trip planned in Spring to London and Paris. I'd love to take any suggestions on interesting things to do and see, and places to eat (accommodations are already decided).

I'd like to avoid the typical tourist spots.

While I share your aversion for the "typical" on a quick trip some of it is just too good to be avoided.

I could easily spend every free minute in London at the British Museum. If you're in a hurry, just head for the Egyptian exhibit. Best collection this side of Cairo.

If you're fortunate enough to have decent weather, cross the Thames at Westminster, hit the BA Eye for a bird's-eye view of the city, & then just walk along the south bank of the river to London Bridge & cross back over there. Lots to see (& eat!) along the way. When you cross back over & are "all out" from the walking, grab a pint & the "Drawn & Quartered"...great sign outside!!!

For an excellent dinner, my fav is The Square on Bruton Street.

Paris....again, if the weather is with you....just go "walk about" through the city...especially the Left Bank. The more off the beaten path...the better!

Originally Posted by WTF

....and also take the train to the Palace of Versailles.

I'd definitely concur! The display of conspicuous consumption is not to be missed!

Originally Posted by Mazomaniac

If you're in London and you want to do the anti-tourist thing, then the only way to go is FOOTBALL.

Now I know this seems like a testosterone-laden guy thing, and it is. But that's the point. What happens on the field doesn't matter. What goes on in the stands is the real show.

Thousands of human males chanting and singing in unison. Multitudes lifted to heaven and dashed to hell with each goal scored. Courtesies discarded. Rules ignored. All manner of chaos allowed with the sole unwritten command that women and children are not to be harmed.

It's like a living anthropology museum. You get to see exactly how men behaved when we still lived in caves and relied on herd behavior for survival. Not that you don't see a lot of that in your daily life anyway, but here to get to see it 30,000 guys at a time!

But if you do it, do it right. Grab the tube through the seedy east end to the Boleyn Ground and take in a match of West Ham United. Go early and walk from the tube station to the ground through a high street area filled with mom-and-pop stores selling authentic salwar kameez and ao dai. Stop in at at a hole-in-wall restaurant for some awesome authentic curry and then head into the stadium through revolving steel riot gates to watch thousands of males being male. Afterward head back to the tube with thousands of fans either partying and carrying on in the streets (if it's a West Ham win) or trashing everything they see (if it's not).

I love it. It's about as far outside my normal comfort zone as I can get without needing a firearm. For all the ballyhoo in the press it's actually a fairly safe thing to do. It just feels deliciously dangerous. The police keep a tight fist on things that cross the line although there's always the random a-hole who started drinking too early in the day. That said, I've only seen one guy who actually got hurt and that's because the idiot showed up in another team's colors.

YMMV, but don't go alone. Maybe you can hook up with Camille for a match!

Cheers,
Mazo.

Again, I concur! If you want to see where the supporters of Toronto FC inherit their passion from, go straight to the source! Thousands standing & singing/chanting in unison....in English!!...and you STILL can't understand a bloody word of it! It's brilliant!!

West Ham offers the most hardcore experience of the "big" clubs but might be a tad over-the-top for the uninitiated. The amount of money involved in the Premiership has "sanitized" the experience somewhat from what it used to be.

I'd suggest a lower-division side to get a real flavor of what it's all about. Unfortunately, Millwall offers an even more over-the-top experience ("No one likes us & we don't care!!!") than West Ham so I can't suggest it to someone who's not ready for it. Crystal Palace or Queen's Park Rangers are Championship League sides that might be fun to check out if they're playing at home whilst you are there. One of them...(QPR, I think)...also have the added benefit of having their grounds in a fun part of town to just go walk-about in....on Loftus Road in Hammersmith of the West End.

[Camille]

Before I forget to say this..I would ask Chiara Delano for info. She's super friendly and really helpful..and Chiara has gone native in both cities and knows them well (well she would know London lol she's a Brit.but she has a really good handle on Paris and several other European cities too).

Some of the tourist spots are to be seen Lauren...don't try and avoid them all..but you are right to be shrewd about the ones you select. I think galleries and museuems have been covered in both cities and for the most part I agree. I would absolutely recommend the Tower of London. If the collectables they have in there don't blow your mind, the knowledge of the guards will. It's a really interesting historical avenue to choose..and their knowledge isn't limited to just the ToL. Btw...the ToL is set in it's own little village..most folks don't know that. Also...wtf is up with St/Pauls charging 5GBP for entry? That's scandalous! (Lauren, most tourist attractions like ToL etc are 15GBP for entry)

The one thing that always seems to suprise people about England is how green it is. There are 60 million plus folks packed into a country that is smaller than California..so people are expecting to feel claustrophobic. Not so!
Go North of London and you will see more and more green. We’re not packed in like sardines that’s just London J A city is so named if it has a cathedral. No cathedral, then it’s not a city. If you like architecture look up some of the cathedrals in the country. Additionally, if you a literary/Bronte fan and enjoy that sort of history then a trip north is a MUST. The Bronte parsonage in Haworth (Yorkshire) is open to the public and is set in a still quaint cobbled village. York is also a beautiful city for architecture. For shopping, London, Leeds and Manchester (you can now get more of less the same things in Leeds as London but at a lower price). Look up Kirstall and Bolton Abbey..both beautiful historical ruins in Yorkshire too. You really should try and get out of London though Lauren, because as fantastic as the city is, it is only one dimension of England and is very different from the rest (esp. the North). If you have time to go North (easily done by train) go via the Lake District (another beautiful spot) to Scotland and see Edinburgh. I’m always surprised that no-one ever makes this suggestion because it’s a beautiful city with wonderful people.
It’s hard to make suggestions without really knowing what you are aiming to see. Let us know and we can help. Spring btw will be rainy in both cities so take a brolly and a decent coat for rain! Temps will likely be in the 40’s or 50’s depending on exactly when you are going.
I'm afraid I'm not a great deal of help with Paris. I much prefer places like the Normandy beaches and Mont St Michel..for the history.

C xxx

[Camille]

West Ham?Millwall? QPR?
If you want football I'll take you see the pool play...or a lower division team in the North..but no southern teams. That'd be like taking a Red Sox fan to a Yankees game

C x

edited to add: The pool = Liverpool

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by Camille

The one thing that always seems to suprise people about England is how green it is. There are 60 million plus folks packed into a country that is smaller than California..

Actually, it is about half the size of California and a third that of Texas (Great Brittan - including Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland is 84,000 sq miles). You don't want to ask about Alaska. Closest state in terms of size is Utah.

The population density at about 720 people per square mile is about the same as Connecticut and 8x that of Texas. Massachusetts (820), Rhode Island (1,000) and New Jersey (1,180) are much worse. No wonder those people are so cranky.

BTW Camille, does TSA allow "brollys" on the plane?

[Camille]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Actually, it is about half the size of California and a third that of Texas (Great Brittan - including Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland is 84,000 sq miles). You don't want to ask about Alaska. Closest state in terms of size is Utah.

The population density at about 720 people per square mile is about the same as Connecticut. Massachusetts (820), Rhode Island (1,000) and New Jersey (1,180) are much worse. No wonder those people are so cranky.

BTW Camille, does TSA allow "brollys" on the plane?

Oi cheeky! Less of the cranky lol.
Well, I did say that England was smaller than Cali..just not how much smaller. Like I said, if you want to breathe..go North
Not sure about brollys on planes...should I be cheeky and give it a whirl? If I don't report back you know why

C xxx

[Guest042611]

I don't know London very well, but in Paris:

Have hot chocolate at Angelina, this little cafe near the Concorde metro stop. Soooo good!

I love the Musee de l'Eroticisme, and something tells me you would too.

The Palais de Tokyo is a fun contemporary art museum with a nice outdoor bar and DJs and on some nights.

I could spend all day at the Centre George Pompidou.

Or walking around Montmartre!

Le Loir dans le Thiere is an Alice in Wonderland themed cafe that I really like in the Marais. It's affordable and cute and has very good food.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

If you're into Rodin, there is a really nice, out of the way Musee Rodin that draws way too little attention.

This was going to be my suggestion also. Especially to see "The Kiss," arguably his most famous work.

For London, go to Hyde Park on a Sunday, and mention that America saved the Brits in WWII. That'll get you an experience like no other.