White Lies

[pjorourke]

Taking this off from the Degeneration thread where there is some discussion of lying.

We probably all (or most of us other that TTH) acknowledge that outright lying is not something any of us aspire to (yes, even in this world). But what about small lies, white lies, which are usually done to prevent hurting someone?

1. Are they ok? Or put in different terms is the greater good of the person worth the lie?
2. Are they worth the risk of getting caught out in them?

[Big Juan]

Are they ok if the receiver does not have the mental capacity to handle the truth?

Truth without love can still hurt and kill.

Wait, that sound like...."Honey I lied to you because... well... I love you".
Bet Hillary heard that once or twice living on PA Avenue.

[atlcomedy]

White lies are fine.

The problem is many of us rationalize white lies when really they are gray. Gray lies are not okay.

[charlestudor2005]

I've never told a lady she's been a lousy f*ck. OTOH, I've never always been fully satisfied. If that's a white lie, I'll live with it. If that's a gray lie, I'll live with it. If that's a cruel lie...sorry, I'll live with that one, too.

There's a big difference between telling a white lie to protect someone's feelings, and abondoning being a gentleman in order to be cruelly blunt.

[TexTushHog]

What the hell did I lie about??!!

[macksback]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

I've never told a lady she's been a lousy f*ck. OTOH, I've never always been fully satisfied. If that's a white lie, I'll live with it. If that's a gray lie, I'll live with it. If that's a cruel lie...sorry, I'll live with that one, too.

There's a big difference between telling a white lie to protect someone's feelings, and abondoning being a gentleman in order to be cruelly blunt.

I've never really had a lousy fu#k.Thats kind of like the worst BJ I ever had was still pretty good.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

What the hell did I lie about??!!

I thought you said you were a lawyer.

[Rudyard K]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

White lies are fine.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

The problem is many of us rationalize white lies when really they are gray. Gray lies are not okay.

Also agreed. But the rationalization didn't make them white.

[discreetgent]

Seems like RK and I agree here that white lies do have their place.

Atl brought up a good point, the follow on to it could be where do white lies turn into gray ones? Does anyone worry about PJ's second point about being caught in one? I know that there are times that I have worried about it, perhaps that is a sign that it might be a gray lie?

[Gryphon]

White lies, defined as lies told to avoid being hurtful or overtly rude by telling the unvarnished truth, are part of the lubrication system of society--without them there's a lot more friction. An example: "I can't come to your party due to a prior engagement" vs. "I would rather have bamboo slivers driven under my fingernails rather than spend three hours in the company of you and your excruciatingly boring friends." For this type of lie, getting caught is no worse than having told the truth initially; the other party is going to be offended either way. The lie gives at least the possibility of everyone saving face.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by discreetgent

Seems like RK and I agree here that white lies do have their place.

Atl brought up a good point, the follow on to it could be where do white lies turn into gray ones? Does anyone worry about PJ's second point about being caught in one? I know that there are times that I have worried about it, perhaps that is a sign that it might be a gray lie?

I think it turns gray when it becomes material to the other party & their decision making or life choice process. Of course context plays a role and there are shades of gray. Think of it as much as anything as white lie qualifies as a "sin of omission"

I tend to like Gryphon's definition of white lies below. As a way of trying to answer the question when does it turn gray? Suppose your Wife/SO keeps asking you "if this dress makes me(her) look fat?" Well if this goes on over time and you consider her weight an issue your "No, of course not." gets gray and you are dodging an issue with someone important to you. Any single occurence is gray overtime it gets gray.

Originally Posted by Gryphon

White lies, defined as lies told to avoid being hurtful or overtly rude by telling the unvarnished truth, are part of the lubrication system of society--without them there's a lot more friction. An example: "I can't come to your party due to a prior engagement" vs. "I would rather have bamboo slivers driven under my fingernails rather than spend three hours in the company of you and your excruciatingly boring friends." For this type of lie, getting caught is no worse than having told the truth initially; the other party is going to be offended either way. The lie gives at least the possibility of everyone saving face.

The social engagement is another good example. One or two times it is white. Overtime it is gray. (assuming you care about the other party to begin with....if not it really doesn't matter*....so long as you don't preface your regrets by saying how much you really would love to attend...)

If you really care about the Gryphon, continuing to blame your regrets on a "prior engagement" gets lame after awhile. Have a heart to heart with G and explain to him his parties really suck or say you don't show because -no hard feelings - they just aren't your cup of tea.

I have to say sometimes not telling the white lie can be pretty liberating. I have a group of friends from school. We'd get together for a weekend at the lake every other year. Early on after graduation it was great. Then spouses and kids and changes in geography and careers started. Reality was if we shared an email once or twice a year that was a lot. Well one member of our group was pretty adament we continue the tradition. Two reunions pass and I told the very believable white lie "work." The third came around last year and I sent a very honest reply: I probably could make it if I prioritized it but don't care to....my life has changed, as have all of ours....we have different lives....but I won't be there... --- result it felt really good to me to be honest instead of hiding behind some excuse.

*I'd say the classic example of the white lie is at a restaurant and after your meal is served the waiter asks, "How is everything?" Now unless something was really bad or you really think he is looking for constructive criticism, the, "Great!" is fine. With close friends or family, that isn't acceptable.

[ClairJordan]

Ooh, good topic. I consider msyelf an honest person, quite forthright, but there are times, in all aspects of life, when a little white lie saves the day. Or simply saying nothing.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Taking this off from the Degeneration thread where there is some discussion of lying.


1. Are they ok? Or put in different terms is the greater good of the person worth the lie?
2. Are they worth the risk of getting caught out in them?

Lying is like breaking wind, we all do it. Some stink more than other but a funny thing, we seem to be able to tolerate our own much more than others.
I think they are funny and like to point them out,
''Did you just fart?''
''No''
''Well there are two of us in this room and it sure sounded and smells like one of us did.''
''Wasn't me''
''Really, well next time you decide not to fart would you send your ego to the toilet?''
Some folks think that is cruel and degrading. They want the lie to go like this.
"I smell Rose petals. Did you just fart?'
''Yes, my farts always smell like rose petals''
''You are so wonderful and even your farts are wonderful''

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Also agreed. But the rationalization didn't make them white.

Jeff Goldblum (Michael): Amazing tradition. They throw a great party for you on the one day they know you can't come.

Jeff Goldblum (Michael): I don't know anyone who could get through the day without two or three juicy rationalizations. They're more important than sex.
Tom Berenger (Sam Weber): Ah, come on. Nothing's more important than sex.
Jeff Goldblum (Michael): Oh yeah? Ever gone a week without a rationalization?

[Doove]

Just for the record, i would like to state that PJ and RK are 2 of the most intelligent human beings i have ever encountered anywhere. Honest!