Welcome to ECCIE, become a part of the fastest growing adult community. Take a minute & sign up!

Welcome to ECCIE - Sign up today!

Become a part of one of the fastest growing adult communities online. We have something for you, whether you’re a male member seeking out new friends or a new lady on the scene looking to take advantage of our many opportunities to network, make new friends, or connect with people. Join today & take part in lively discussions, take advantage of all the great features that attract hundreds of new daily members!

Go Premium

Go Back   ECCIE Worldwide > General Interest > Diamonds and Tuxedos
test
Diamonds and Tuxedos Glamour, elegance, and sophistication. That's what it's all about here in ECCIE's newest forum which caters to those with expensive tastes, lavish lifestyles, and an appetite for upscale entertainment.

Most Favorited Images
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
Most Liked Images
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
  • Thumb
Top Reviewers
cockalatte 646
MoneyManMatt 490
Still Looking 399
samcruz 399
Jon Bon 396
Harley Diablo 377
honest_abe 362
DFW_Ladies_Man 313
Chung Tran 288
lupegarland 287
nicemusic 285
You&Me 281
Starscream66 278
George Spelvin 265
sharkman29 255
Top Posters
DallasRain70793
biomed163231
Yssup Rider60924
gman4453294
LexusLover51038
offshoredrilling48646
WTF48267
pyramider46370
bambino42577
CryptKicker37215
The_Waco_Kid36994
Mokoa36496
Chung Tran36100
Still Looking35944
Mojojo33117

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-01-2010, 06:55 PM   #1
Guest053011
Account Disabled
 
User ID: 4424
Join Date: Jan 1, 2010
Posts: 889
Default Pelvic exams done without consent

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...rticle1447337/

A moment of shame in our (Canada's) healthcare system:

Medical students routinely practice doing internal pelvic examinations while surgery patients are unconscious.

Imagine that you are undergoing a fairly routine surgery – say, removal of uterine fibroids or hysterectomy. During or right after the procedure, while you are still under anesthesia, a group of medical students parades into the operating room and they perform gynecological exams (unrelated to the surgery) without your knowledge.

Do you consider this okay, or an outrageous violation of your rights?

Regardless of your feelings, you should be aware that this is standard procedure in many Canadian teaching hospitals.

Medical students routinely practice doing internal pelvic examinations while surgery patients are unconscious, and without getting specific consent, at least in Canada.

Guidelines in the United States and Britain say specific consent is required but, by contrast, Canadian guidelines state that pelvic examination by trainees is “implicit.”

The practice – one of those dirty little secrets of medicine – has been exposed in a thoughtful, professional manner by a young doctor.

The story goes back to 2007 when Sara Wainberg was a medical student at McMaster University. Her younger brother Daniel, also studying to be a doctor, phoned for advice: As part of his rotation in obstetrics and gynecology, he had been asked to perform a pelvic exam on a woman who was under anesthetic. He refused, saying doing so without consent would be unethical.

“It got me thinking,” Sara Wainberg said. “I had done this numerous times in my training and it had never occurred to me that it might be unethical.”

She polled her fellow students and found 72 per cent had also done exams on unconscious patients, without consent, confirming that it is routine.

It is essential for medical students to learn basic techniques, including pelvic examination, in well supervised settings.

The long-standing argument in favour of allowing these exams to be done on surgery patients is that it provides a unique opportunity for students to practice the delicate, invasive examination without causing the woman pain or embarrassment.

There is also an assumption that women would never accept pelvic exams by students while conscious so sneaking them in, while not ideal, is acceptable.

When Dr. Wainberg took a position as a resident at Foothills Hospital in Calgary, she decided to study the issue further. She and fellow researchers polled 102 women who were patients at the Calgary Pelvic Floor Disorders Clinic.

The results – reported in The Medical Post and in the Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology – are as fascinating as they are troubling.

Dr. Wainberg and her team found that fewer than one in five women were aware that a student might do a pelvic exam in the operating room. At the same time, 72 per cent expected to be asked for consent before such an exam was done.

The patients – unlike medical educators – seem to be quite clear on the concept of informed consent.

You don't probe, poke or otherwise invade the orifices of a patient without their permission, regardless of how educational it might be. Period.

The most intriguing part of the survey, though, is that it showed that women are quite willing to undergo these gynecological exams – if they're asked.

Sixty-two per cent of respondents said they would consent to medical students doing pelvic exams, and an additional 5 per cent said “yes” but only if a female student was doing the exam.

This lays to rest the notion that it would be impossible for medical students to get this training unless they were doing it in the current surreptitious, unethical manner.

But let's be clear: Even if all the women surveyed had rejected exams by medical students, the current approach would still be wrong.

There are other ways to do this training, using simulation models, paid volunteers and consenting patients in other settings such as clinics.

Patients have a right to say “No.” They are not merely a collection of body parts to be practised on. Patients are due respect and ethical treatment, whether they are awake or anesthetized, and no matter how potentially embarrassing the procedure may be.

The research done by Dr. Wainberg and her colleagues, in passing, exposed something else important: Patients have very little idea what goes on in the operating room. Most have no idea that, in addition to the surgeon and nurses, medical residents or medical students may be present and may even participate actively.

This is the result of a failure to communicate. It is also a striking example of a lingering bit of paternalism that is still all-too-present in medical culture – this notion that “we do the surgery and the details are none of your business.”

“It's definitely the patient's business who does what to them,” Dr. Wainberg said. “They have to be informed and they have to give consent.”

In fact, if she was starting over again as a medical student and was asked to perform a pelvic exam, Dr. Wainberg has no doubt she would refuse.

So too should every medical student and every teacher.

A good doctor does not merely possess good technical skills, she or he must behave ethically and treat patients with the utmost respect.
Guest053011 is offline   Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 07:01 PM   #2
guest051510-1
Miss America
 
User ID: 3339
Join Date: Dec 30, 2009
Posts: 461
Default

When I went under the knife for my breast, they had me wear paper underwear. When I woke up, I noticed I wasn't wearing any underwear. Later I went to the bathroom and noticed a piece of the missing paper undies, hanging out of my...

Well, I don't know how it got there, but I think I may have been violated.
guest051510-1 is offline   Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 07:33 PM   #3
Nicolette Morgandy
Pending Age Verification
 
Nicolette Morgandy's Avatar
 
User ID: 1985
Join Date: Sep 21, 2009
Location: New England
Posts: 183
My ECCIE Reviews
Default

Yikes!
Nicolette Morgandy is offline   Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 07:34 PM   #4
charlestudor2005
Valued Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 31, 2009
Location: In hopes of having a good time
Posts: 6,942
Encounters: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolette Bordeauxva View Post
When I went under the knife for my breast, they had me wear paper underwear. When I woke up, I noticed I wasn't wearing any underwear. Later I went to the bathroom and noticed a piece of the missing paper undies, hanging out of my...

Well, I don't know how it got there, but I think I may have been violated.
Ah, the old philosophical saw: if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?

In this case, if a woman is screwed without her consent, but she isn't conscious to experience it, is it still rape?
charlestudor2005 is offline   Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 07:36 PM   #5
guest051510-1
Miss America
 
User ID: 3339
Join Date: Dec 30, 2009
Posts: 461
Default

What you don't know, won't hurt -right?
guest051510-1 is offline   Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 08:43 PM   #6
Carrie Hillcrest
Pending Age Verification
 
User ID: 167
Join Date: Mar 28, 2009
Location: Baton Rouge/New Orleans
Posts: 992
My ECCIE Reviews
Default

Any medical exam, diagnostics, or treatment done without consent is unethical. Pelvic exams on unconscious women sounds like a great way to increase the cost of malpractice insurance due to all the lawsuits when it's discovered...

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlestudor2005 View Post
if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?

In this case, if a woman is screwed without her consent, but she isn't conscious to experience it, is it still rape?
I've never understood why the former is a philosophical question and not a physics question. Of course sound waves exist without a witness!

And, um, yes, sex without consent is rape.
Carrie Hillcrest is offline   Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 04:46 AM   #7
WTF
Lifetime Premium Access
 
WTF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1, 2010
Location: houston
Posts: 48,267
Default Sounds like Canada needs more pelvic volunteers

Canadian Courtesan Unite....please help out your local OBGYN resident in training


We love our Ob-Gyn's love here in the State's!






[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF48IghIN7c&feature=re lated"]YouTube- Sicko: OB/Gyn Love[/ame]
WTF is offline   Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 05:57 AM   #8
Sarcastro
Ambassador
 
Sarcastro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 18, 2009
Location: Houston
Posts: 433
Encounters: 6
Default

Quote:
Any medical exam, diagnostics, or treatment done without consent is unethical.
The law says that it's also battery--an intentional tort. Since it's a pelvic exam, presumably accompanied by penetration, it would also contain the elements of a sexual assault--a felony.
Sarcastro is offline   Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 06:02 AM   #9
WTF
Lifetime Premium Access
 
WTF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1, 2010
Location: houston
Posts: 48,267
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastro View Post
The law says that it's also battery--an intentional tort. Since it's a pelvic exam, presumably accompanied by penetration, it would also contain the elements of a sexual assault--a felony.
Is that Canadian Law?
WTF is offline   Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 06:09 AM   #10
Nicolette Morgandy
Pending Age Verification
 
Nicolette Morgandy's Avatar
 
User ID: 1985
Join Date: Sep 21, 2009
Location: New England
Posts: 183
My ECCIE Reviews
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTF View Post
Canadian Courtesan Unite....please help out your local OBGYN resident in training


We love our Ob-Gyn's love here in the State's!
WTF, is there something that you're not telling us?
Nicolette Morgandy is offline   Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 06:13 AM   #11
Sarcastro
Ambassador
 
Sarcastro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 18, 2009
Location: Houston
Posts: 433
Encounters: 6
Default

WTF--I'm not a Canadian lawyer, but there are three possibilities I can pull out of my ass--

1) Obviously it's not Canadian law or the med students would be prosecuted or sued in civil court; or,
2) Consent of the patient is presumed, much like the US presumption for emergency treatment of an accident viction; or,
3) Consent is obtained when the patient initials and signs (but fails to read and understand) the voluminous consent form that's obtained prior to virtually any procedure.
Sarcastro is offline   Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 09:27 AM   #12
sofiaofhouston
Pending Age Verification
 
sofiaofhouston's Avatar
 
User ID: 7365
Join Date: Jan 10, 2010
Location: houston
Posts: 2,641
Encounters: 1
Default The consequences

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlestudor2005 View Post
Ah, the old philosophical saw: if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?

In this case, if a woman is screwed without her consent, but she isn't conscious to experience it, is it still rape?
What is the rape results in pregnancy, disease? Yes it is......Your pretty much stating date rape is okay if she can't recall.......
sofiaofhouston is offline   Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 09:36 AM   #13
WTF
Lifetime Premium Access
 
WTF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1, 2010
Location: houston
Posts: 48,267
Default

No more rape jokes charlestudor2005! You ever run for Governor of Texas? LOL

http://www.mahalo.com/clayton-williams-rape-joke
WTF is offline   Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 03:25 PM   #14
Rudyard K
Lifetime Premium Access
 
Rudyard K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 31, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,206
Encounters: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sofiaofhouston View Post
What is the rape results in pregnancy, disease? Yes it is......Your pretty much stating date rape is okay if she can't recall.......
Yeah, this whole thread has been most enlightening. I would have thought the concept that such actions were pretty immoral would have been fairly universal. Apparently not.
Rudyard K is offline   Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 03:51 PM   #15
guest051510-1
Miss America
 
User ID: 3339
Join Date: Dec 30, 2009
Posts: 461
Default

The rapist is a criminal and his actions are immoral, true. But, is there a victim if the victim is unaware they have been victimized?
guest051510-1 is offline   Quote
Reply



AMPReviews.net
Find Ladies
Hot Women

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright © 2009 - 2016, ECCIE Worldwide, All Rights Reserved