In Defense of Pakistan

[theaustinescorts]

I've been saying on this board for at least a year that the Pakistanis are in league with the militants and were sheltering bin-Laden. Now the Congress and media have discovered what every informed person in government already knew. Cries of "treachery" are going up all around.

In Pakistan a new round of bombings is underway undertaken by militants which have slipped out of their government's influence. The Pakistani people can't decide which is more of an outrage - their government's continuing alliance with terrorists, or their inability to prevent the US from openly killing their citizens suspected of terrorism without any trial or evidence [something that could never happen here].

From 1979 until the Russians withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989 the US encouraged the Pakistanis to create and support every kind of islamist militant group...i.e. terrorists.

This is of course something the Pakistanis were eager to do. Terrorist groups were their only means of pressure against India in their conflict over Kashmere. In Afghanistan, the creation of terrorist groups would deter India from any invasion of Pakistan by creating a "poison pill" of terrorists next door which the Indians could never vanquish even if they stormed into Karachi and Islamabad.

American policy in supporting terrorist groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan was the bedrock of our mutual policy until the Soviet Union collapsed. Then, once our goals were achieved, we typically abandoned both Afghanistan and Pakistan to the conditions we had spawned their. Afghanistan descended into carnage and chaos under the thugs we created to kill Russians earlier. The Afghans and Pakistanis did the only thing they could - to give the place over to the most pious of the islamists willing to take control...the Taliban.

In the US mild complaints were heard regarding their draconian nature, but not to dire as to prevent them from meeting with our oil companies for pipeline deals and the other prospective commerce.

Then came 9-11.

I guess that was "blowback," a term Covert Action operators use borrowed from the First World War when poison gas you've dropped on your enemy is carried by the wind over to where you are and you have to breath it.

We've been breathing it ever since.*

*Actually the intl community's been experiencing blowback from the Afghan debacle since at least 1994, when a couple of Jihadis from there showed up at the gate of CIA headquarters at Langley and shot up agency employees with AK-47s. This was the only attack ever made at the CIA headquarters by anyone as far as I know. Several were killed in their cars and it was a bloody mess.

[Yssup Rider]

Puh-leeze. IMHO, the government of Pakistan has been incredibly two-faced with the U.S.

Not that we didn't deserve it, welcome it, and work hard to get it but I do believe Pakistan has exploited its position with us. Our own political greed backfired and we made a deal with a scorpion, thinking we were smarter than they were.

Their government isn't playing straight and hasn't since 9/11; if ever.

No volume of spin, no littany of past misdeeds, no cultural diatribe, no bibliography will change my mind on this one. A year ago, you were right about Pakistan's political dishonesty. If this is an "I told you so" thread, TAE, perhaps you're in the wrong business. But for whatever reason, historical, political or economical, the REAL enemy is - and maybe has always been - Pakistan.

BTW -- How 'bout them Astros?

[Booth]

Looking forward to the "In Defense of Satan" thread. After that perhaps you can do "What's Good About Cancer".

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Puh-leeze. IMHO, the government of Pakistan has been incredibly two-faced with the U.S.

Not that we didn't deserve it, welcome it, and work hard to get it but I do believe Pakistan has exploited its position with us. Our own political greed backfired and we made a deal with a scorpion, thinking we were smarter than they were.

Their government isn't playing straight and hasn't since 9/11; if ever.

No volume of spin, no littany of past misdeeds, no cultural diatribe, no bibliography will change my mind on this one. A year ago, you were right about Pakistan's political dishonesty. If this is an "I told you so" thread, TAE, perhaps you're in the wrong business. But for whatever reason, historical, political or economical, the REAL enemy is - and maybe has always been - Pakistan.

BTW -- How 'bout them Astros?

Of course they've been two-faced with us but my point is why?

And if all this was known to a nobody like me why is it only now being exposed to the American people for their reaction? Think about that.

And if you think treachery is a moral issue then think again. The US practices treachery all the time, including in Pakistan and Afghanistan. At this very moment we are negotiating with the Taliban, just as we sold out to the Iraqi Sunnis to ally against al-Qaeda after the Sunnis had drug the bodies of our soldiers through the streets of Falujah and IED'd us into hell. Hey that's war; that's diplomacy - you have to compromise sometimes so leave the moralizing back home unless you want to be left fighting everyone all the time.

We're the ones who supported and promoted their creation of extremism in Afghanistan. Every time they'd deliver a load of weapons to Hekmatiar, Mullah Omar, Azam, or bin-Laden we'd give them a slap on the back and a good-ol "Attaboy!"

Is it their fault that we don't like the consequences of OUR policy?

What are they supposed to do when we've changed the rules in the middle of the game?

Of course they're gonna play with us because we've given them no choice.

Personally this issue is what caused me to leave government work in 1986. For me, personally, I grew completely disgusted with what we [including myself] was doing in Pakistan by encouraging them to support an "army of part-time lunatic religious fanatics" in Afghanistan.*

Yes Pakistan is a monster but it's a monster we created, and I was not the only person to leave government work over this issue. At the time many people left over this, and the only ones who were willing to proceed were that black hats. 1986 was the turning point, and it wasn't as what was portrayed in the "Charlie Wilson's War" crap. When Avrokotos, Devine, Vickers and their crowd came into the task force all the steady operators left, and the only ones who agreed to the mission thereafter were madmen like Milt Bearden.

*"Army of part-time lunatic religious fanatics" is not my term; it is what the CIA Station Chief in Pakistan, Milt Bearden, refered to them as. He was totally right about that issue; the problem with Bearden is that he didn't give a shit.

ps....
Pakistan needs to handled carefully for many reasons including their nuclear arsenal. This government thinks they can treat them like a failed state, and that is not a good idea. The Pakistanis are very, very intelligent. They are as ruthless as we are and should not be underestimated. They learned their treachery from the British.

[Yssup Rider]

Don't think you're the only "nobody," as you say, keeping up with current events. But you're probably more obsessed with this particular situation/region than any one of us.

If I read you correctly, most everything that's wrong in the Middle East is the fault of the U.S. government, right, and we therefore deserve the terror attacks, shithouse diplomacy and treachery because we drove these poor people to it.

Well you don't need 20-20 vision to see where you're coming from TAE.

And while I agree with a lot of what you say -- I'm still pissed off over the way we fucked up Iran and bent over to the House of Saud -- I believe these people should be treated as enemies now. Period.

That doesn't mean we need to blow them up. But we damned sure need to stop sending money, troops, supplies and technology over there. Chit, the Chinese own us now, we need to let THEM handle this clusterfuck.

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

If I read you correctly, most everything that's wrong in the Middle East is the fault of the U.S. government, right, and we therefore deserve the terror attacks, shithouse diplomacy and treachery because we drove these poor people to it.

Not exactly.

I don't think we have much to do with the existence of the corrupt, venal political leaders who torture, murder and steal in every single country there without exception [including Israel]. That horror is a function of their national characters, and I don't care what the PC anthropologists and acedemics claim - there IS a thing called national character and it determines why some societies are benign while others are malignant.

My point is that every time the US has taken action to pursue a narrow, marginal strategic goal it has backfired and cost us a thousand times what we were seeking to secure. That's what happened in Afghanistan/Pakistan since 1978 when we started supporting islamic militants to oppose communist influence.

The best way to deal with that horrible part of the world is to:

1.Maintain the strength of our economy so that the dollar will be strong and therefore all international oil transactions will be in dollars, and,

2.Trade with a few of them selectively, and,

3.End all foreign aid to all of them, including the $3 billion a year to Israel, the $3 billion and year to Pakistan, the $2 billion a year to Egypt, and the $1 billion a year to Jordan.

4.Tell the Israelis we know they have nuclear weapons so they can fend for themselves, and,

5.Use Covert Action to target a few lslamist groups that might possibly potentially maybe someday develop the ability to penetrate our massive domestic defenses and TSA underwear screeners and thereby park another smoking van in Times Square.

[Munchmasterman]

Pakistan was a staging area for supplies going to the mujahideen in a proxy war against the USSR. Our military went in after 911. There was no part time army during the Soviet occupation in Afghanistan. It was very much a full time army.
And now that we’re fighting next door we should coddle the Pakistani because they have nukes? While we throw Israel to the wolves because they have nukes to defend themselves? So we should abandon our historical allies and bend over backwards for India’s problem? You are obviously, at best, a holder of a green card. I don’t know where you are from but you don’t exhibit any of the national character of this country.

Also I envy your ability to sum up the dynamics of a region that has been fighting for well over a thousand years.

You know, it’s our fault.

[KosherCowboy]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

I don’t know where you are from but you don’t exhibit any of the national character of this country.

Also I envy your ability to sum up the dynamics of a region that has been fighting for well over a thousand years.

Well said, the realty is:

Obama was taken to school by Netanyahu, Congress had more respect for him than they do our own president. A very successful trip to the USA, the Palestinians as they should will be shot down at the UN. They don't need any more land, they abuse the land they have already. Congress sees this ( and knows this). Mission accomplished.

and Obama will now have to play along too, Netanyahu really showed how weak our own president is, he seemed to have stolen home court advantage and forced Obama to stuff the shit back in the horse and reword his verbiage.

Obama needs to be reelected, we don't have to worry about a Palestinian state at all for many years, there ain't going to be one during Obama's tenure or at least until 2025 at the earliest. I think we have seen the end of Obama stepping on Israel's toes as he knows it will backfire, and aid will continue to be sent to Israel as it should and has for many decades and will continue for decades to come. It will also increase not only in # but in %....

hell, maybe I'll start an escort agency in Israel and build brothels in the west bank for all the men that will be moving in to the settlements that Obama can't do a thing about now!! He was just neutered in the very city that leads the free world where he is the President.

The West Bank Escorts, now accepting Euros and Dollars as well as local kurrencies...Mention this post and get a 25% discount !!!

[S O B]

Isn"t a palestinian state as deserved as an Israeli state? Hey KK, why don"t you move to a settlement to manage your brothel? You"d get $10,000 just for settling on Palestinian lands.

[KosherCowboy]

Originally Posted by S O B

Isn"t a palestinian state as deserved as an Israeli state? Hey KK, why don"t you move to a settlement to manage your brothel? You"d get $10,000 just for settling on Palestinian lands.

No, it isn't, not until the Palestinian people can denounce terror, not harbor it, not support it nor vote for an organization that calls for another states destruction, whether that state be Israel or not.

So no, at this time they do not deserve one. Not at the expense of women and children in Israel. I feel for the women and children that are Palestinian but the day they decide to love their children more than they hate the Jews once again is the day peace and statehood will come to them. This means denouncing Hammas, no exceptions..

I may be right, I may be wrong, but there is in realty a zero % chance they get statehood under Netanyahu, even if a moderate Israeli is elected next they still won't have statehood. That is the way it is going to be until the Palestinians embrace love and not hate..

Remember, they overwhelmingly elected Hammas, no gun was pointed at them. They chose that path, and that path for now means no shot at statehood..

It is not Palestinian land, nor will it be. They don't need land, they need to find inner peace and peace w the west, than statehood can be discussed...

By the way, give a Palestinian a foot they want a leg, give them a finger they want a hand, it is a waste to give them any land, if Israel in theory returned to the pre-1967 borders they'll just cry and kill until the 1967 border becomes ' the Mediterranean Sea'

That runs in the region, just look at what we give ( gave) to Pakistan yet they return the favor by stabbing us in the eye. My point exactly, give Pakistan $500 they want $1000 and they'll kill the first American they can or at least hide the murderer who will do it if they don't

[S O B]

aaarrrgghhhh hate PALESTINIAN people much???

[KosherCowboy]

Originally Posted by S O B

aaarrrgghhhh hate PALESTINIAN people much???

not the people, their actions and choices...people are innocent, their choices not.

Why can't they simply denounce terror, elect moderates who want to work with Israel? The Israeli/Palestinian economy would thrive, medicine and schools abundant for deserving Palestinian children, all the items the rest of the Arab world refuses to supply them with while they guzzle oil profits that could easily help would be supplied by Israel and the west. Electricity, clean water, homes built; the people would thrive.

Instead, they support Hammas. It's that decision I hate, not the people.

[S O B]

And we in our infancy, should have "worked with" England???

[KosherCowboy]

Originally Posted by S O B

And we in our infancy, should have "worked with" England???

Sure, we stole from the Indians, the British took over half the world, the Romans were evil by creating an Empire; we could go back in history and call ourselves and other empires thieves, murderers etc. but that was than and this is now. The world is a different place. Expansionism and colonialism days are gone..

Regardless, we colonists shot at Redcoats and armed men.
The Palestinians cross borders and kill the children and women.

The US Colonists were not showing up in droves on the other side of the Atlantic slitting the throats of the Redcoats wives and kids.

Compare an apple to an apple, not an apple to a orange. What you have asked is the same nonsensical arguments folks like Saeb Erakat and Hannah Ashwama spew out to the media.

[S O B]

Wh y does Israel need to expand? To make room for your ilk to move there? Have you seen the Israeli checkpoints, that turn away ambulances, roadblocks. I give up, I type with one finger and cannot debate with a closed mind.