Liberals and conservatives....

[Marcus Aurelius]

Liberals and conservatives....


For sure they enjoy arguing in a circle. Each pounding out their mantra. Sometimes degrading into dogma. In religion, usually people pick up their beliefs from their parents. Some will break away such as a Jew becoming a Christian or a Catholic becoming a Muslim. I've witnessed this when someone has been beat over the head with the Bible or they have seen what they believe is great hypocrisy.


I don't see this in politics. Sure their parents have some influence but not near as much as religious beliefs. Professors, peers, music?


Both sides of the political spectrum spews out studies, statistics, (Anyone remember 101?).
They don't appear to even glance at their opponent's points. They are arming up with a rebuttal before they receive a response to their last volley.


I would ask the Liberals.

1. What is wrong with conservatism?

I would ask the Conservatives.

1. What is wrong with liberalism?

I'm confident that each of them are well aware of what the other side stands for and what they hate about it. I believe it must be more complicated than one side believes that “People should pull themselves up by the boot straps.” or “Not everyone can pull themselves up by the boot straps.”

[Iaintliein]

As a porcupine Libertarian, I will say the same thing is wrong with both groups. Both groups contain elements that want to legislate, "their way," onto all.
+
The liberal/socialists want to redistribute assets to enforce their view of charity, calling it "social justice."

Meanwhile the conservative/religious zealots want to control every one's bodies and actions to enforce their view of virtue, calling it "patriotism."

A pox on both their houses, the key is a government just barely big enough to do what it was meant to do, and not big enough to do either what the liberals or the conservatives what it to do.

The political spectrum is a circle or sphere, never a straight line.

Regards,

[pjorourke]

I doubt we could even agree what liberalism and conservatism are, let alone whats right or wrong with them.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

I doubt we could even agree what liberalism and conservatism are, let alone whats right or wrong with them.

Very well said. I remember my father saying "A working man that votes for a republican is a fool." Well I believe that the democratic party today is not the one of yesteryear.

[discreetgent]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

Very well said. I remember my father saying "A working man that votes for a republican is a fool." Well I believe that the democratic party today is not the one of yesteryear.

I suspect that statement could apply to pretty much any political party.

[Sarcastro]

I'll vote for politicians that maximize individual liberty. Haven't found too many of those types lately.

[atlcomedy]

I think it is all shaped by our life experiences.

At least fiscally one of my "life changing moments" was writing my first check to the IRS as a teenager. I ran a small business that was largely cash & I probably could have stayed UTR, but I reported my income. That was a wake up call. When you just get a paycheck/stub you notice all the withholdings but it isn't "real" in the same way because those dollars were never really in your hand or bank account.

I think religion is shaped by life experiences as well but since in many households that involves weekly attendance at a service for 18 years that is a pretty good homefield advantage Then add to that most religions are more the same than different; the idea of switching isn't too common. Instead, we engage more or disengage instead of changing sects. I hear more people say "Well I was raised Catholic (or whatever), but don't go to church every week" than "I used to be a Methodist but now I'm Baptist"

[npita]

Actually, I won't even discuss politics in terms of liberals and conservatives. Neither term is an accurate description of those who portray themselves as such nor does it accurately (or even approximately) describe any political party. Those terms are primarily used to convey the false images that political parties would like constituents to believe. The majority of people would rather believe (and argue) simplistic sound bites than think.

[ANONONE]

Mark Twain said it best:

"They are the right and left asscheek of the same damn pig."

[nevergaveitathought]

have one rule: never vote for an incumbent.

i have one more rule: never sweat the petty stuff and never pet the sweaty stuff.

i agree with pj...agreement in basic definitions are hard to come by

[EmilyHemingway]

Originally Posted by Iaintliein

A pox on both their houses, the key is a government just barely big enough to do what it was meant to do, and not big enough to do either what the liberals or the conservatives what it to do.

Well said. As soon as someone starts arguing why the political issue du jour grants, or ought to grant, them the right to my assets or personal values, my eyes glaze over. The closest I've ever come to a decent affiliation with which to ally myself would be Constitutionalist.

[John Bull]

Originally Posted by Iaintliein

Meanwhile the conservative/religious zealots want to control every one's bodies and actions to enforce their view of virtue, calling it "patriotism."

It is a misstatement to place conservative and religious zealot in the same descriptive phrase as if they are one and the same. They are very different.
It is easy to imagine a conservative who might also be, in his private life, a religious zealot. But, it is not possible that the same man/woman could be a true conservative and espouse laws which force his religious views onto the people. A true conservative reveres the Constitution and adheres to it's prohibition on a state religion.

For books on conservative principle's, written in easy to understand, simple language try: The Conscience of a Conservative; and With No Apologies: The Outspoken Political Memoirs of America's Conservative Conscience both by Barry Goldwater.

The Libertarians among us, and I count myself very close to their camp, will recognize many of the principle's he espoused.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by John Bull

It is a misstatement to place conservative and religious zealot in the same descriptive phrase as if they are one and the same. They are very different.
It is easy to imagine a conservative who might also be, in his private life, a religious zealot. But, it is not possible that the same man/woman could be a true conservative and espouse laws which force his religious views onto the people. A true conservative reveres the Constitution and adheres to it's prohibition on a state religion.

The other confusion people have is equating economic and personal freedom. As shown by the graphic below, politics has at least two dimensions. Traditional liberals tend to be fascists in economic matters (e.g., we are going to take you money and give Chico the illegal alien fee unlimited healthcare, because that should be a right) while being live and let live in personal mores (e.g., go right a head and screw around -- its not hurting anyone.) Conservatives tend to be the reverse. But when you allow freedoms on both dimensions, thats when you get to libertarians.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

The other confusion people have is equating economic and personal freedom. As shown by the graphic below, politics has at least two dimensions.

Where was the old test to graph where you fell on the political spectrum?

.

[discreetgent]

one version of the questionaire http://www.politicalcompass.org/test