BBBJCIM safety questions?

[newtothegame25]

I have had a few sessions over the years in which all activities have been “covered”. Here recently I have engaged a few upper tier providers that offer “uncovered” BBBJCIM services. The experiences have been absolutely mind blowing but I can’t help in wondering if I am putting myself in a position of great risk of contracting an STD. I know this hobby has some inherent dangers, but I don’t think to a Huge degree because I have always insisted on being “covered” for everything else.
Does anyone know the facts about the risk? From a lot of reviews I have been reading I’m not alone in greatly enjoying this activity, but I believe it’s a far question to ask.

[LAVixian]

There is always a risk involved if either parties are infected. can be passed through saliva and body fluids. the only safe way is to not do it at all.

[Rebecca Love]

Please refer to the wealth of information available at the CDC (Centers for Disease Control) website (http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/oralsex.htm). This particular link focuses on HIV but there are links to other STD info as well.

Now, the difficult truth in the hobby is that WE ALL KNOW that CBJ is far safer than BBBJ for all parties. But most gentlemen and many reputable providers have elected to accept the inherent risk involved in BBBJ. The concensus among the scientific community is that BBBJ has some risks but far less than penetrative anal or vaginal sex. HOWEVER, much of the evidence is anecdotal because, lets face it, very few people ONLY have oral sex. These days people do it "every which way" imaginable, sometimes protected, sometimes not. So when an STD is contracted it is virtually impossible to link it to one specific sex act.

There are biological and anatomical factors which make BBBJ somewhat safer than penetrative sex. Once body fluids pass through the mouth and enter the digestive system (yes, thats gross to think about), most bacteria and viruses are neutralized by acidic gastric juices. This level of protection is not present with other types of sex.

We can give ourselves a false sense of security by offering BBBJ without CIM but we all know that bodily fluid is still exchanged during that act. Also, the simple skin to skin contact presents risk in and of itself.

The bottom line is that you have to decide what risk you are willing accept for a great BJ. There are obvious stupidities that could put you at greater risk like receiving a blow job if you have any sort of cut or abrasion or if your partner has any visible sores. But that's not inherent risk, that's plain stupidity. Like LAVixian said, the only way to avoid the risk is abstinence. You, like everyone else in this hobby, have to make your own personal decision.

(And yes, in my "side job," I'm a health care professional)

[RN1204]

Good day to you sir. I hope this beautiful day finds you well.

From a clinical standpoint, I believe the risk is greater for the giver than the recipient. Seminal fluid potentially carries Hepatitis B Virus but not Hepatitis C Virus (From what I have studied). It can also potentially carry Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV). Saliva has been shown to have similar infectious potential as semen. Both aforementioned body fluids carry a low risk, nonetheless, in comparison to blood exposure. Contraction of these viruses by way of intact skin exposure to saliva or semen is extremely rare, if not nonexistent. Numerous immunological elements and biological processes in intact skin are superfluous in creating a barrier to infectious organisms. Swallowing will increase the risk for the lady, but I honestly cannot tell you how much it would. Of a surety, the lethality of gastric acid and immune elements would persuade me to think that the risk would not increase much. However, lets look at the early Oral Salk Polio vaccine (attenuated polio virus). It infected many with poliomyelitis. Interesting, eh? I will discuss non-intact skin exposure shortly.

The viral load of any of these mentioned pathogens is, most certainly, exceedingly higher in the blood. That is why shared needles, inadvertent needlesticks, etc. carry a much higher risk for pathogenic entry into one's bloodstream, when, of course, a portal of entry allows opportunity. See the CDC website or WHO website for more technical, professional guidance.

Of interesting note, Hepatitis B and C viruses carry about a fourfold increase in risk over HIV in regard to the risk of contraction from a blood source, but I digress.

Back to the BBBJCIM....If you factor in the potential for micro-fissures and gingival upset in the woman's mouth, the risk rises exponentially in regard for her safety, but probably not for the male. If she swallows the ejaculate, her risk increases due to potential, but unlikely gastric and intestinal microvilli absorption. If you factor in the potential for micro-abrasions and micro-fissures on the male phallus, his risk rises significantly because of potential contact with pathogens (viruses) from her saliva and possible microfissures and gingival irritation in her buccal cavity. A small, microscopic tear in the skin (fissure) creates a potential portal of entry for the male to put it plainly. The same holds true for any compromise in the buccal membrane or gums of the female.

I am no expert on this subject, but I do have some knowledge on it.

I said all that to say this: Unless there is future eradication of the mentioned viruses (Wishful thinking) or the noninfectious state of both individuals is indisputably explicable, this indulgence will never be 100% safe no matter how optimistic or lustfully persuaded one chooses to be.

Is the risk enthusiastically very low? Yes, without question. Can either party be assured with absolute certainty that he or she will walk away without being exposed to said pathogens? No --not by any means or reason.

My opinion is that the risk involved is very low and is not enough to dissuade me from indulging in the act in question; I say that with both parties' welfare in mind.

Thanks for posting. I am sure that this topic has been exhausted in other threads here or threads on the previous ASPD site.

Again, I am no expert. Some may disagree with some of the things I mentioned or add to them, but I think what I said will give you a decent perspective to aid you in future decision making.

I hope I have helped you; Hopefully others will explicate on said topic and facilitate your arrival at a confident viewpoint on this subject.

Ciao, my friend!

RN

[RN1204]

This article (see link) is not concerning HIV, HBV, or HCV, but it is very interesting that a pathogenic virus survived the harsh environment of the gastrointestinal tract and infected many people. It must be considered and realized, however, that the amount of virus ingested was surely very high in comparison to what semen or saliva would even potentially have. It is also very worthy of note that a very small number of people vaccinated became infected. Just as in BBBJ, some things manage to slip through the cracks, so to speak.

Polio is a virus, just as these others mentioned are viruses. This may not have much merit or pertinence regarding the topic here, but it is quite interesting notwithstanding.

http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/polio.php

[Franco30]

Assuming no cuts, abrasions on you.

The biggest concern for the insertive partner would be gonorrhea if it's present in her throat.

Syphilis if a chancre is present in her mouth, but the occurrences of this in the heterosexual community is pretty low. HIV risk to the male partner would be virtually nil assuming no cuts, abrasions or open skin. HIV transmission to her assuming no open skin would be pretty low but not nonexistent.


Her risks are a bit higher, I actually wonder why girls would take the chance. Considering the widespread proliferation and ease of infection of gonnorhea; gonnochal throat infections tend to be pretty difficult to clear up too. Why take the risk?

[Krystal]

Well said to all of you! Bravo that ppl have been doing their homework on this. It is something that is talked about all the time but never this well. Everyone needs to read this thread.

I want to just ad one small thing to the male side of this. Yes it is much harder for you to contract something that has been established. The reason why though is because of the length of the shaft and the possible virus/disease having to travel upward, unless of course as said earlier that a cut is present. So one simple and easy way to almost assure no contraction is to urinate immediately after. Urinating after will flush all bacteria out as well as majority in females (again higher risk for us). I am sure this will put some things into perspective. Again bravo you guys on the knowledge you have.

Health care professional ( so my knowledge is quite accurate)

[Guest062614]

I have a thought on this subject - of minimizing the risk of disease from BBBJ.

As said earlier, urinating shortly after the enjoyable experience might be effective in flushing whatever bugs are making their way up the urinary tract. BUt what about the surface of the skin. As soon as I can after receiving BBBJ, i give myself a thorough alcohol bath all along the shaft and even work it in the opening a little bit. Actually, i don't confine this to the shaft but also wipe a good deal of skin around the genital area. I figure that this MIGHT be effective against any bugs that are lying on the surface but have not yet penetrated. I don't know if this really helps, but figure it can't hurt - other than a little sting.

So does anyone - especially the health care pros - have an opinion as to the effectiveness of this?

[slider]

I am very happy to see an informed and cogent discussion of this topic on this Board.
Qualifications (or lack of same): Two doctorates, one of which is a medical degree. Not an expert on human sexually transmitted diseases. Used to teach histology (structure of the tissues of the body) to medical and other health-care students.
Both internally and externally there are cellular barriers between the surface (outside world, which includes what is in the digestive tract) and the bloodstream, but routinely there are breaks in those barriers that our body is capable of readily repairing, and immunological defense mechanisms to cope with the momentary breaches. However, there are certain agents that, once there is access, can’t be eradicated by our defenses (see for example, the viruses referred to above). The risk of acquiring a virus into the blood stream is a function of the amount of virus and access to an open blood stream portal. Keep in mind that it only takes one virus particle (HIV or hepatitis viruses for example) to make it to a site where it can survive and proliferate to do irreparable harm to you and your hobby associates or loved one(s).
My perspective receiver (oral): Virtually every adult would have some gingivitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gingivitis), which could be a portal to the blood stream. If you brush your teeth (preferably a soft bristled brush) and floss (both of which we all should do daily at least) and see red in what you spit out (assumes not having recently eaten something of that color or have red in the toothpaste), you have capillaries leaking blood into the mouth and likely have inflamed oral tissue somewhere. Even if no red is seen, you likely have some red blood cells in your spittle after brushing, flossing and even eating foods which can damage the oral mucosa (e.g., piece of bone from a pork chop, sharp cartilaginous rib of a fish or hard material in popcorn). We pretty consistently experience some amount of oral abrasion that results in breaches of the protective lining of the mucosa. (I consider gingivitis to be a chronic localized abrasion.) So, to me it doesn’t matter that the stomach produces acid that can kill some viruses. We can be defenseless before that point.
My perspective giver (male): I assume we all recognize that most enjoyable acts involve some kind and level of abrasion of the male organ. The penis is pretty well designed to cope with that, and there is a layer of epithelial cells that is a barrier, but they can and are abraded. I bet most guys have occasionally experienced a sore red area after masturbation, especially if they have used inappropriate things for lubrication (DON’T use shampoo!). As you can probably also appreciate, the epithelium is not as thick on the penis as some other places on the body ((interesting side notes - scrotal skin (epidermis and dermis) is the thinnest, and the density of sensory nerves is not most dense at the head of the penis but on the surface of the cornea)). Damage to the protective barrier can and probably almost always does occur during sexual activity (premature ejaculators may have an evolutionary advantage here!), but we generally don’t notice it (however, who hasn’t been scraped by teeth?), and our bodies quickly repair it. However, all it takes is one virus particle to get access to your bloodstream and proliferate to do you in. So, if you have a breach, and she/he has virus in the mouth, vaginal secretions, tears (she/he is crying from the joy at having your amazing organ orally?) which hits that breached spot, gets access and reaches the promised land, you’re doomed. Yes, a number of things have to be right for the virus, but the more chances taken, the greater the chance of the planets being aligned for the virus.
If one applies alcohol (what concentration? diluted bleach would be better, but how many would sign up for that, and what would mister happy look like after doing that 100 times?? and, you need to allow time for recovery from alcohol or bleach treatment as both can damage the surface barrier) post-coitally, I would expect to hear an ouch! a number of times (due to surface breaches allowing access to sensitive nerve endings). Yes, it might work, but also might cause additional damage to a site that was borderline, that would allow viral access. (Reminds me of attending a party out in a field as a teenager (late 60's, rural america) where a couple was DRINKING Listerine. What's up with that I asked? Well, they had hot lovin relations and were sure they were warding off a potential venereal disease.)
Professional Expert Opinion: If you donated blood prior to engaging professional services, you know that there are questions about engaging in sexual activity with professional providers. If you have done so, they don’t want your blood. They don’t care if you only did it once or used protection. Professionals responsible for keeping the blood supply safe deem the risk too high.
My Personal Perspective: I’m in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and would love to experience the talents of some (no, ALL, though I do have a priority list memorized) of the legendary performers bareback, but won’t unless I get a terminal diagnosis which doesn’t impair my ability to appreciate the act. In that case it won’t matter to my life (though I would have to stop having unprotected sex with those I care about), though I would also be truthful and say to the potential provider (first recipient gets a free pass) that my organ has been ministered to by some of the most skilled in the art, so they can make their own assessment of the risk I might present to them.
So, for me, it is too much like Russian roulette and I haven’t done it. I would like to, but don’t want to take the chance due to the risks as I see them, for me and particularly those I care about who are kind enough to share their intimate selves with me. As has been well stated above, these are personal risk assessments and choices. Hopefully they will be informed ones.
(While writing this I was struck by the realization that I was listening to music composed by a genius, Beethoven, who lost his hearing and later his life, to a sexually transmitted disease.)
Safe sex and a long life and much love, where our needs get met without harm to others,
Slider

[Candi Kisses]

Non-Infectious Fluids
Saliva—is NOT considered to be infectious. The only time saliva would pose a risk would be if it had blood present in it. There are no documented cases of HIV transmission through saliva. There is a protein in the mouth that attaches itself to the surface of blood cells and blocks infection by HIV that appears to be present in the mucous membrane in the mouth at a level sufficient enough to reduce the concentration of HIV in saliva to non-infectious levels.

[Krystal]

Kisses Candi!!! Thx girl.

[slider]

Date June 20, 2010
http://www.avert.org/can-you-get-hiv-aids.htm
Oral sex

Oral sex with an infected partner carries a small risk of HIV infection. If a person gives oral sex (licking or sucking the penis) to a man with HIV, then infected fluid could get into their mouth. If the person has bleeding gums or tiny sores or ulcers somewhere in their mouth, there is a risk of HIV entering their bloodstream. The same is true if infected sexual fluids from a woman get into the mouth of her partner.
There is also a small risk if a person with HIV gives oral sex when they have bleeding gums or a bleeding wound in their mouth. Saliva does not pose a risk.
HIV infection through oral sex alone seems to be very rare, and there are things you can do to protect yourself. For more information visit our Oral sex page.

The following is a source (dated June 10, 2008) which includes the comment above provided by another poster, but I don't know if it really represents older information since I don't know where the dates came from.
http://www.mnaidsproject.org/learn/transmission.htm

There ARE many statements that say HIV CAN"T be transmitted through saliva but look at this:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_HIV_be...hrough_kissing

There have been no confirmed cases of HIV transmission from kissing. Supervisor's note: This information is stale or speculative--The U.S. CDC reports that there are (rare) cases (see link):
Can HIV be transmitted by kissing?
There is a remote risk from deep, open-mouth kissing if there are sores or bleeding gums and blood is exchanged. Therefore, persons living with HIV should avoid this behavior with a non-infected partner.





The New York Times reports the first documented case in 1997 (see link):
A woman apparently acquired the AIDS virus from deep kisses with an infected man, Federal health officials said yesterday. They said the case was the first reported transmission of H.I.V., the AIDS virus, through kissing.

I'm reminded of what a professor of reproductive physiology told us on the first day of class: "Half of what I'm going to teach you is wrong. The problem is I don't know which half." I've been around long enough to see things that were taught as absolute, which were later found to be exactly opposite of what had been doctrine for years. I think for myself, and I could be wrong, but see oral transmission as a possiblity and risk, whether HIV is in the salivary gland secretions or not.
It is great to have the dialogue.

[Guest110911]

herpes...that would be my biggest fear. type 1...a cold sore...can turn into type 2...genital herpes...after a bbj. it was believed that a sore had to be present to pass it along, but that is no longer true. having said that, depending on the location of an infected persons sore...or future sore, could also make a condom usless during sex. just another risk...and that shit is everywhere!

[anita]

If you want to be a 100% safe from std's do not kiss,do everything covered and make sure the protection covers all the way down

[seductivesarah]

i prefer everything covered but i might as well hang up my condoms and retire!!!