Hey, That's MY Water!

[CuteOldGuy]

Yes, now some states are banning the collection of rainwater that falls on your property. Just thought you'd like to know.

http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/12/27...ver-our-water/

[AdventureAdams]

It's all about control and money, if more and more people start being economically conservative with water and collect their own then that is less water going down city drains and less money in the states wallet.


Because the same argument that’s now being used to restrict rainwater collection could, of course, be used to declare that you have no right to the air you breathe, either. After all, governments could declare that air to be somebody else’s air, and then they could charge you an “air tax” or an “air royalty” and demand you pay money for every breath that keeps you alive.


It's ridiculous how micro-managed some governments can be, I am not too surprised that in some states it is a law but that they actually pay people to enforce this law is ridiculous.

You can't have anything on this earth with people immediately claiming ownership and taxing it. Is nothing sacred?

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Yes, now some states are banning the collection of rainwater that falls on your property. Just thought you'd like to know.

http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/12/27...ver-our-water/

can't get this link. do you have a better one?

maybe this'll due. the issue not exactly new...

http://habwwe.wordpress.com/2011/12/...ims-ownership/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainwater_harvesting

[MorganM]

Oh brother! What next.....???

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Yes, now some states are banning the collection of rainwater that falls on your property. Just thought you'd like to know.

http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/12/27...ver-our-water/

Had a discussion about this a while back nothing new.

[TexTushHog]

If every property owner collected all rain that fell on their property, every lake and river in America would be dry. This is actually a very complex issue. It sounds strange in the abstract, but there must be some limit on a property owner's ability to divert run off out there would be no water to ultimately run into creeks, rivers, and lakes.

[CuteOldGuy]

TTH, do you really believe the drivel you post? The government owns the rain? Are you f*cking serious? That makes as much sense as Farmer Filburn affecting interstate commerce by using his own wheat to bake bread. Damn, you are entertaining!

[Budman]

Look at it this way COG. If the goverment owns the rain then they are responsible for any and all damage is causes. Your roof leaks, call Obama. Your field floods and you you can't harvest, call Obama.

[Roothead]

clean (fresh) water will be the "new oil".....especially as 3rd world demand increases and as the climate change continues to evolve...

[I B Hankering]

The Dam


State of Pennsylvania ‘s letter to Mr. DeVries:


SUBJECT: DEQ
File No.97-59-0023; T11N; R10W, Sec 20; Lycoming County

Dear Mr. DeVries:

It has come to the attention of the Department of Environmental Quality that there has been recent unauthorized activity on the above referenced parcel of property. You have been certified as the legal landowner and/or contractor who did the following unauthorized activity:

Construction and maintenance of two wood debris dams across the outlet stream of Spring Pond.

A permit must be issued prior to the start of this type of activity. A review of the Department’s files shows that no permits have been issued. Therefore, the Department has determined that this activity is in violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Pennsylvania Compiled Laws, annotated.

The Department has been informed that one or both of the dams partially failed during a recent rain event, causing debris and flooding at downstream locations.. We find that dams of this nature are inherently hazardous and cannot be permitted. The Department therefore orders you to cease and desist all activities at this location, and to restore the stream to a free-flow condition by removing all wood and brush forming the dams from the stream channel. All restoration work shall be completed no later than January 31, 2010.

Please notify this office when the restoration has been completed so that a follow-up site inspection may be scheduled by our staff. Failure to comply with this request or any further unauthorized activity on the site may result in this case being referred for elevated enforcement action..

We anticipate and would appreciate your full cooperation in this matter. Please feel free to contact me at this office if you have any questions.


Sincerely,




David L. Price
District Representative and Water Management Division.




This is the actual response sent back by Mr. DeVries:



Re: DEQ File
No.. 97-59-0023; T11N; R10W, Sec. 20; Lycoming County

Dear Mr..Price,
Your certified letter dated 11/17/09 has been handed to me. I am the legal landowner but not the Contractor at 2088 Dagget Lane, Trout Run, Pennsylvania .

A couple of beavers are in the (State unauthorized) process of constructing and maintaining two wood ‘debris’ dams across the outlet stream of my Spring Pond. While I did not pay for, authorize, nor supervise their dam project, I think they would be highly offended that you call their skillful use of natures building materials ‘debris.’

I would like to challenge your department to attempt to emulate their dam project any time and/or any place you choose. I believe I can safely state there is no way you could ever match their dam skills, their dam resourcefulness, their dam ingenuity, their dam persistence, their dam determination and/or their dam work ethic.

These are the beavers/contractors you are seeking. As to your request, I do not think the beavers are aware that they must first fill out a dam permit prior to the start of this type of dam activity.

My first dam question to you is:
(1) Are you trying to discriminate against my Spring Pond Beavers, or
(2) do you require all beavers throughout this State to conform to said dam request?

If you are not discriminating against these particular beavers, through the Freedom of Information Act, I request completed copies of all those other applicable beaver dam permits that have been issued. (Perhaps we will see if there really is a dam violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Pennsylvania Compiled Laws, annotated.)

I have several dam concerns. My first dam concern is, aren’t the beavers entitled to legal representation? The Spring Pond Beavers are financially destitute and are unable to pay for said representation—so the State will have to provide them with a dam lawyer.

The Department’s dam concern that either one or both of the dams failed during a recent rain event, causing flooding, is proof that this is a natural occurrence, which the Department is required to protect. In other words, we should leave the Spring Pond Beavers alone rather than harassing them and calling them dam names.

If you want the damed stream ‘restored’ to a dam free-flow condition please contact the beavers—but if you are going to arrest them, they obviously did not pay any attention to your dam letter, they being unable to read English.

In my humble opinion, the Spring Pond Beavers have a right to build their unauthorized dams as long as the sky is blue, the grass is green and water flows downstream. They have more dam rights than I do to live and enjoy Spring Pond. If the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Protection lives up to its name, it should protect the natural resources (Beavers) and the environment (Beavers’ Dams).

So, as far as the beavers and I are concerned, this dam case can be referred for more elevated enforcement action right now. Why wait until 1/31/2010? The Spring Pond Beavers may be under the dam ice by then and there will be no way for you or your dam staff to contact/harass them.

In conclusion, I would like to bring to your attention to a real environmental quality, health, problem in the area It is the bears! Bears are actually defecating in our woods. I definitely believe you should be persecuting the defecating bears and leave the beavers alone. If you are going to investigate the beaver dam, watch your dam step! The bears are not careful where they dump!

Being unable to comply with your dam request, and being unable to contact you on your dam answering machine, I am sending this response to your dam office.

THANK YOU,


RYAN DEVRIES &
THE DAM BEAVERS

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

If every property owner collected all rain that fell on their property, every lake and river in America would be dry. This is actually a very complex issue. It sounds strange in the abstract, but there must be some limit on a property owner's ability to divert run off out there would be no water to ultimately run into creeks, rivers, and lakes.

TTH,

fyi, what you claimed is a myth.

the state of colorado commissioned a study and found that all the water that fell never makes it to the lakes or rivers. they evaporate back to the blue sky.

[TexTushHog]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

TTH, do you really believe the drivel you post? The government owns the rain? Are you f*cking serious? That makes as much sense as Farmer Filburn affecting interstate commerce by using his own wheat to bake bread. Damn, you are entertaining!

Every parcel of land is owned by someone. If everybody were to capture all their runoff, there would be no water for general use. It's a simple fact. Therefore, at some point, absent regulation, increasing numbers of individuals capturing run off causes a problem. The time to regulate that is before the problems start.

Let's say River X flows through my property. Can I divert all the water in that river to my use? No. That water is not mine, even if captured. It's the exact same principle.

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

TTH,

fyi, what you claimed is a myth.

the state of colorado commissioned a study and found that all the water that fell never makes it to the lakes or rivers. they evaporate back to the blue sky.

Where is that study? I can't believe that is true.

Certainly at some point an amount of water evaporates that is equal to that amount that falls. However, I cannot be the exact same water that most recently fell. The odds of that are astronomically small. Some might be water that recently fell, but other would be water that was at the time of the rainfall already in a lake or river. In order to make a determination like you are suggesting, you would have to track water molecule by molecule.

And suppose I capture the water that falls on my place and use it for drip irrigation to grow cotton, a water intensive crop. It doesn't evaporate until it is released from the cotton plant residue.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

Where is that study? I can't believe that is true.

from the article COG posted.

Prior to the passage of these laws, Douglas County, Colorado, conducted a study on how rainwater collection affects aquifer and groundwater supplies. The study revealed that letting people collect rainwater on their properties actually reduces demand from water facilities and improves conservation.

Personally, I don’t think a study was even necessary to come to this obvious conclusion. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that using rainwater instead of tap water is a smart and useful way to conserve this valuable resource, especially in areas like the West where drought is a major concern.

Additionally, the study revealed that only about three percent of Douglas County’s precipitation ended up in the streams and rivers that are supposedly being robbed from by rainwater collectors. The other 97 percent either evaporated or seeped into the ground to be used by plants.

This hints at why bureaucrats can’t really use the argument that collecting rainwater prevents that water from getting to where it was intended to go. So little of it actually makes it to the final destination that virtually every household could collect many rain barrels worth of rainwater and it would have practically no effect on the amount that ends up in streams and rivers.

hope this answers your question.

[CuteOldGuy]

Don't confuse TTH with facts. He's a lawyer.

[TexTushHog]

dilbert,

1. No cite.
2. Sure, that's true if a small percentage of people are collecting rain water.
3. How can they possibly make the conclusion in paragraph 3 (which is incidentally inconsistent with what you originally claimed: "state of colorado commissioned a study and found that all the water that fell never makes it to the lakes or rivers.)
4. Where is the actual study, not some asshole right wing (and apparently unreliable that you aren't willing to tell us who he or she is) wing-nut summarizing the study?